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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
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Mxyzptlk · 21/07/2018 00:35

I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

As in 'transwomen are now the real women and you are nobody.'?

flourella · 21/07/2018 00:39

Errol they most certainly are trying it, though. I've even seen some recently say that sex is different from not only gender, but also from reproductive role. Good if this extreme level of batshittery is doing their cause harm.

Nice name, by the way. Almost went with the Discworld theme myself.

raisinsarenottheonlyfruit · 21/07/2018 02:03

DonkeySkin sent you a PM :)

Bespin · 21/07/2018 02:28

flourella if that ccg is only just developing a policy then it is well behind other ccgs in having a policy because most have had them for years, I helped write one for the trust I worked in nearly 10 years ago, nothing radical as changed in. these policys for quite a bit.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 21/07/2018 03:15

Lastgirl you say: I used to wish I was as kind as the women who used preferred pronouns, but I could never bring myself to do that - to lie. I have a serious issue with lying...it is like my mouth can not speak words that aren't truth.

I have the same problem. However you usually use pronouns in the person's absence and I find that a great help.

For example, everyone uses male pronouns for both of the two TW I know if they're not listening. The first is transsexual, well liked, had surgery about 10 years ago, and doesn't bat an eyelid if old friends forget and use his male name (his female name is jokey rather than porny). The second is, I'm sure, an AGP, who caused massive distress to his whole family, though things have improved in recent years.

Not entirely sure what point I'm trying to make. I suppose that you rarely have to use pronouns and can usually come up with a fudge if you have to. Grin

pfttt · 21/07/2018 03:15

I am a big fan of Sartre's quote on anti-Semites, written in 1944, which applies just as well to any kind of gaslighting fascist and also I think applies well to the kind of TRAs who the OP refers to:

“Never believe that anti-Semites are completely unaware of the absurdity of their replies. They know that their remarks are frivolous, open to challenge. But they are amusing themselves, for it is their adversary who is obliged to use words responsibly, since he believes in words. The anti-Semites have the right to play. They even like to play with discourse for, by giving ridiculous reasons, they discredit the seriousness of their interlocutors. They delight in acting in bad faith, since they seek not to persuade by sound argument but to intimidate and disconcert. If you press them too closely, they will abruptly fall silent, loftily indicating by some phrase that the time for argument is past.”

flourella · 21/07/2018 03:22

I am aware of that, and I'm sure that the Trust in question already treats trans patients as their preferred gender in accordance with the EA (which I find questionable in a way that I suspect you don't); however, as recently as April this year they were only at the stage of having drafted a specific "Policy on Supporting Transgender Patients" according to details from a meeting of the Board of Directors. The above policy might be more to do with staff being courteous and polite towards patients, though, having just looked at the document again.

DancelikeEmmaGoldman · 21/07/2018 03:53

I do love this argument DonkeySkin, not only because it is clear and sensible, but because it has the simplicity of truth. "We are women. These are our sexed bodies. Because if these bodies we experience oppression and have requirements for places which afford us safety and dignity."

I suppose the plus side of this debate is that I'm brushing up on biology. Clown fish do not change sex - they are hemaphrodites, containing both male and female reproductive organs. When the (only one in the fish community) female fish dies, a gene switch is triggered and the most aggressive male fish brings his female reproductive organs online (pescatorially speaking) and takes over the female role.

If we're taking life lessons from the sea, about now I'm thinking a lot of women might be more interested in the example of sharks,

"Parthenogenesis occurs in the hammerhead shark and the blacktip shark. In both cases, the sharks had reached sexual maturity in captivity in the absence of males, and in both cases the offspring were shown to be genetically identical to the mothers."

It's probably telling that transactivists and allies have chosen the clown fish to argue their case ...

womanformallyknownaswoman · 21/07/2018 05:11

Psychopaths excel in mind control. People are not lying but are being subjected to undue influence, mostly through social media.

Youngsters have been recruited into cult sex change because they believe in people treated equally. They have been drawn in on that premise.

Then they have been duped on a massive scale by very callous and calculating tactics. They know not what they do.

Don't blame the cult members but the forces behind it - who will duck and weave behind the mob they have incited.

Engage the critical thinking of the mob. The only way to get people to exit a cult is to keep the communication open and not condemn them. Keep the truth simple. Engage their critical thinking faculty- that has been severely compromised but not by them but by the psychopaths who know how to mind control. Do this bit by bit. So out go long detailed arguments and in come sound bites.

Not because the research isn't necessary nor valid - it is and needs to be done. But compromised minds can't go there. Expose the lies by asking questions and stating simple truths, but all the time reassuring them and keeping the communication channel open.

vicviking · 21/07/2018 06:01

Agree OP many are just liars. Not much going on in their lives and love messing with people's heads and sticking the boot in on women. Others are not giving this thing enough thought or if they suspect they might be wrong about twaw they seek out information that helps them double down on their position.

Agree we need to keep dragging the arguments back to those around material reality. No point playing their games.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:23

I was always in detention at school for skiving PE; so much so that eventually I was put in with the boys.

Maybe they had just recognised your innate gender identity?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:37

Oops. Blush Missed a page of Sartre and Hitler...

Loving the Sartre though. We should put that after every post made by a certain someone who lives in Brighton because that is EXACTLY what she does.

Broken11Girl · 21/07/2018 07:47

Sidetrack, but I hate mental health related slurs like crazy, delusional, nuts being used in political debate, really bugs me.
Use your words. If you think someone is not arguing in good faith, disingenuous, manipulative, or if you think they are mistaken, say that. It's better debate anyway, trading insults isn't debate.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:57

Sidetrack, but I hate mental health related slurs like crazy, delusional, nuts being used in political debate, really bugs me.

I do generally agree. But do we not also need a word for something that is so far outside the way that the vast majority of people view the world? A friend of mine who is a therapist says that 'mad' is actually a very useful word because it distinguishes between what is perhaps odd but actually reasonable and what is really not?

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 21/07/2018 07:59

Or maybe between what is odd and what is the result of something unhealthy?

Bowlofbabelfish · 21/07/2018 08:10

Delusional has a specific meaning. I generally agree on not using medical slurs - they shouldn’t be used to denigrate anyone. However to point out that a belief is delusions is sometimes helpful and is different to calling a person mad/crazy.

Iused2BanOptimist · 21/07/2018 08:23

Flourella. I had annual updating training this week and I learnt of a new policy regarding emergency blood transfusions. Since forever the universal donor in emergency has been O Neg . However ONeg is in short supply (I've noticed some adverts for donors if you are ONeg) so it has been decided that O POS is perfectly safe to give except to women of childbearing age. However our trust has decided to err on the side of safety and say that OPos can be given in emergency to men, and men only.

I daresay it will be a very rare occurrence but this does leave open the possibility of a young, passing, trans male being given O POS in extremis. So if his/her reproductive possibilities haven't been trashed by T then receiving an O POS blood transfusion will add to future complications due to the possibility of Rhesus incompatibility.

I know it's rare occurrences and an emergency is just that etc but it's another example of how the NHS needs to be very careful when talking about treating people according to their preferred gender. Although mostly when they refer to this I assume it is meaning courtesy and polite behaviours as you say.

Bespin · 21/07/2018 08:32

Iused2BanOptimist the one thing I have always tried to make clear to young trans people is that we need to be very clear to. medical. professionals that we are trans so that they can treat us effectively, though unfortunately this can lead to trans broken. leg syndrome or now in the states people having the right not to treat you. we need to remove these things to make sure examples. like the one you gave don't happen.

BeUpStanding · 21/07/2018 08:45

Bespin

I really wish you'd spend just a few moments to sort out the punctuation in your comments before posting. You have a glitchy phone, I understand (I've been there too), but it really doesn't take much to put in a bit of extra effort and ensure your message is accessible and legible. It's a courtesy to the many many people reading, and would certainly help me to understand better the points you are making.

BeUpStanding · 21/07/2018 08:48

Actually on re-reading that is one of your more legible posts... I am just so used to random full stops littering your comments Grin

Mxyzptlk · 21/07/2018 08:50

I was always in detention at school for skiving PE; so much so that eventually I was put in with the boys.

How was that supposed to help?? Confused

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 21/07/2018 08:56

It was because the male PE teacher was scary so was meant to control me better. I suppose it worked because I did end up attending.

ChattyLion · 21/07/2018 08:57

Thank you for this thread OP and everyone contributing. I really appreciate the links and sources for further reading. You’re passing on tools to all of us. Flowers

Clinicalwaste · 21/07/2018 09:09

Thank you so much for this thread op. It is one of the best and most educational things I have ever seen around this debate. You get the heart of the matter. Thank you so much for this crystal clear, devastatingly clear analysis. This needs to be shared far and wide. This is one to bookmark for the completion of the GRA documentation.

MsMcWoodle · 21/07/2018 09:11

Another thanks for this thread. Reading this has been eye-opening and has changed the way I will act in future.
I see that someone has already put a link to it on Twitter.