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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

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Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 19:37

Nobody, not even the most ardent transactivist will say yes. They just won’t. I’ve had a lot of waffle about gender and various flannel about hormones but nobody is willing to write down that they believe humans can change sex.

Are you on Twitter Babel?

Bowlofbabelfish · 20/07/2018 19:46

I’m not. eresh

Probably best for my blood pressure. I assume people say it there?

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 19:49

UglyCathKidstonBag, I didn't link to the thread as it has the profiles of many non-public figures on it. Tweet was from July 18 and embedded in another thread, that was itself part of a huge, days-long argument about defining 'woman', that started with trans activists demanding Glinner define 'chair', and when he gave them the dictionary definition, they mocked him and claimed that definition could also mean 'horse'. Like I said, these people are not arguing in good faith.

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LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 19:52

I always thought some of them DO believe it - that they had been brainwashed by the proselytizing, misogynistic preachers of the cult. Particularly the young ones.

History is cluttered with inadequate men brainwashing people, especially women, in the most ludicrous ideologies. For example, Charles Manson managed to convince some of his followers he was Jesus!! This two bit career con artist actually did that! He even managed to convince them to kill - at least one of them seemed to believe in Helter Skelter (a race war).

So I do believe that brainwashing could be a factor here.

UglyCathKidstonBag · 20/07/2018 19:57

DonkeySkin

Makes sense, I’ll seek it out.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 19:59

I pretty much agree with the OP

But I honestly think that some people are a bit [insert chosen word here] and firmly believe that you can CHANGE into a male/female

So they aren't lying they are just a bit ignorant of biological facts

But in the main...yeah they are lying

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 19:59

Probably best for my blood pressure.

Yes. Especially not at the moment! Thanks

They say that biological males have always been female. No need to change sex. Apparently there are five markers of sex and only one is genetic. So if they have three others they are that sex.

And then there is clownfish bollocks obvs.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:02

For example, Charles Manson managed to convince some of his followers he was Jesus!! This two bit career con artist actually did that! He even managed to convince them to kill - at least one of them seemed to believe in Helter Skelter (a race war).

It's terrifying what people can be manipulated into doing for their ideological beliefs. See also Jonestown.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:02

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LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:06

That's right, Eresh - Jonestown as well. People CAN be brainwashed into behaving in all kinds of absolutely outrageous ways. There are some highly skilled manipulators out there, a lot of whom have latched into this ideology for money, fame, validation, power....particularly over women.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:08

Sorry - the first one is to Rufus!! I keep forgetting to put posters' names in.🤭

ErrolTheDragon · 20/07/2018 20:08

that started with trans activists demanding Glinner define 'chair', and when he gave them the dictionary definition, they mocked him and claimed that definition could also mean 'horse'

I suppose at a pinch it could mean a dead horse. But you'd have a hard time flogging it.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:09

Boom boom, Errol!😂

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:09

My lovely dead horse Grin

Halfeatentoast · 20/07/2018 20:10

inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes

This argument always gets me. We don't define women by gender stereotypes. THEY do. That's the point.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:12

There's a really good documentary about Jonestown on either Pick or Really I think. UKTV On Demand anyway.

Really chilling to see actual footage and hear audio.

SlothSlothSloth · 20/07/2018 20:17

nobody is willing to write down that they believe humans can change sex.

Unfortunately, Babel, this isn’t true. As others have said I have seen people argue this or similar very often, on twitter.

A more common variant is that they argue that they have always been biologically female/male (whatever their new identity is), as in the recent example attached.

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?
Are we arguing about the wrong thing?
DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 20:18

I always thought some of them DO believe it - that they had been brainwashed by the proselytizing, misogynistic preachers of the cult.

The thing is, LastGirl, it's not just a ridiculous belief, like believing a crazy cult leader is the messiah, it's actually an impossible thing to believe. Like I said, no one is able to cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male person as female. No one can believe that sex is a matter of self declaration without rearranging the perception centres of their brain, so that they can no longer accurately perceive sex in human beings. The person would have to have a type of 'sex-blindness' in the way that some people have 'face blindness'.

The brainwashing that is taking place with trans politics is on the level of linguistic confusion - doublespeak, which attempts to destroy the meaning of words so that people cannot think clearly. They are chanting mantras in the hope of destroying the political language we have to talk about males and females.

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LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:19

Is there? Thanks Eresh! I'm so interested in all things cult. I watched a fantastic two part documentary on Waco and David Korean..he was another one with a Jesus delusion. And he again managed to convince his followers of this too.

Trans ideology is so cult like in many ways. Just off the top of my head, one important factor of what makes a cult is that its members often act in a way that is not in THEIR interests, but in the interests of the leaders. We see that here, with the handmaidens.

Questions are not tolerated in cults. There is absolute authoritarianism. Finances in cults always tend to be a bit murky, too.

SlothSlothSloth · 20/07/2018 20:23

Also I would not assume most people are lying about this. Deficated trans activists are probably consciously lying, yes, as this is a subject they will have given more thought to than most. Indeed, the knowledge that they cannot ever really change sex is a great source of anxiety for many.

But your ordinary person has not thought about it at all. It just isn’t on their radar, and trans people are saying they’ve changed sex, and they just think “seems reasonable” and say some supportive words (usually TWAW). Then don’t think of it again. I don’t think that means they’re stupid.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/07/2018 20:25

I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

And we're back to Schroedinger's Woman...

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:25

I'm not sure Donkey...I have had students say to me that these people were born in the wrong body (if I had a pound every time I heard that...) and that when they transitioned they were finally in the RIGHT body. I do think some of them have been so brainwashed they believe it.

Neededastealthname · 20/07/2018 20:26

Really glad I noticed this thread, I was posting in another thread something akin to what your title says but was so inarticulate about it my comments were getting misconstrued and my points weren't getting across.

Arguing whether a man can become a woman is an exercise in futility when facts are treated with total disregard because they are in opposition with your agenda.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:26

And of course, I then break the news that most of them don't change their bodies in the slightest which leads to all manner of confusion!