Help end medical misogyny. Sign our petition.

Help end medical misogyny.
Sign our petition.

Sign the petition

Please or to access all these features

Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
5
TerfsUp · 20/07/2018 20:28

IME, TRAs and handmaidens do believe that they transwomen are biologically women because if they admit that they're not, the whole edifice comes crumbing down.

MothQuandary · 20/07/2018 20:29

I don’t understand how anyone can sincerely believe in an invisible, all-powerful god, but lots of intelligent people do. I don’t think it’s fair to assume everyone who says they believe TWAW is lying, although certainly some of them are.

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/07/2018 20:29

And it's Emperor's New Clothes too. 'I wish I believed it. I should believe it. Why can't I properly believe it like Shon?'

Like when everyone white and woke was saying they 'don't see colour' to show how non-racist they were. I remember feeling awfully guilty for noticing anyone being BAME Confused

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:32

I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

I agree. I don't necessarily think they are all flat out lying. Just that their actions bely what they claim. The way they respond to TRAs is not the way they would respond to women.

hackmum · 20/07/2018 20:32

I think you’ve nailed it, OP.

Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:33

Questions are not tolerated in cults. There is absolute authoritarianism. Finances in cults always tend to be a bit murky, too.

YY.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:37

Streets I am with you! Sometimes I wonder what they are seeing that I'm not. But it really is the Emperor's New Clothes....they see what they want to see. I see the reality. The truth.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 20:37

Having said that, I do get why LastGirl and others are drawing comparisons with Jonestown and other cults predicated on brainwashing.

And I think I understand what you mean when you say that 'some people do believe', in the sense that many people have cognitive dissonnance around this issue, in that they think they believe it.

I think central tenet of gender identity ideology is what Bertrand Russell called a Sunday Truth. That is, a belief that everyone professes to hold, and some may actually believe they hold it, but no one actually behaves according to this belief.

I am persuaded that there is absolutely no limit to the absurdities that can, by government action, come to be generally believed. Give me an adequate army, with power to provide it with more pay and better food than falls to the lot of the average man, and I will undertake, within thirty years, to make the majority of the population believe that two and two are three, that water freezes when it gets hot and boils when it gets cold, or any other nonsense that might seem to serve the interest of the State. Of course, even when these beliefs had been generated, people would not put the kettle in the ice-box when they wanted it to boil. That cold makes water boil would be a Sunday truth, sacred and mystical, to be professed in awed tones, but not to be acted on in daily life. What would happen would be that any verbal denial of the mystic doctrine would be made illegal, and obstinate heretics would be "frozen" at the stake. No person who did not enthusiastically accept the official doctrine would be allowed to teach or to have any position of power. Only the very highest officials, in their cups, would whisper to each other what rubbish it all is; then they would laugh and drink again. This is hardly a caricature of what happens under some modern governments.

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 20/07/2018 20:48

And I think I understand what you mean when you say that 'some people do believe', in the sense that many people have cognitive dissonnance around this issue, in that they think they believe it.

Yes this is also my position. They shy away from processing it properly.

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 20:55

I have had students say to me that these people were born in the wrong body (if I had a pound every time I heard that...) and that when they transitioned they were finally in the RIGHT body.

I feel like we are arguing past each other. I agree that people do accept the 'born in the wrong body' narrative, because it fits with sexist beliefs that there is some metaphysical 'essence' to men and women beyond our sexed bodies. This belief isn't new. It long predates trans ideology. Nineteenth-century sexologists called gay men and lesbians 'inverts', theorising that in a metaphysical sense they had the 'soul' of the opposite sex inside them. Trans ideology builds on this paradigm, that's why it's so easily accepted, and why so many people don't question the notion that an eight-year-old boy can be 'really a girl inside'.

But, my point is that outside of mystical narratives about gendered essences, people still perceive biological sex and act accordingly. They may well accept the claim that a man can 'feel like a woman' as true. But do they actually cognitively perceive him as no different to women, and treat him accordingly? No, they do not.

OP posts:
LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:56

Very interesting Donkey. Yes, they definitely THINK they believe it, but as you say, they don't ACT like they do.

I honestly never thought of it this way before. Even though my #1 scold to my children is actions speak louder than words!

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 20:59

I wonder then if this really is the way to go, like you said in your op. 🤔 Would people listen?

BarrackerBarmer · 20/07/2018 21:00

Yes.

This has always been about us.

A movement, by men, to deny women any recognition of our separate existence from them.

As we demand they acknowledge us, they tear down the words, laws and means by which we assert ourselves.

No name for this half of humanity, as determined by the other.
No legal recognition for this half of humanity, as dictated by the other.
No rights pertaining specifically to this half of humanity, as prohibited by the other.

We only exist in the terms that they dictate. We only are allowed to exist as 'people of certain feelings' that men may also possess.
Otherwise our existence will not be acknowledged.

Ask people for the word to use to talk about the 3.8 billion humans I'm alluding to.
They answer: who? People with these particular body parts? Why would we talk about them? I don't recognise them. I can't see them. Why would they need a name? They aren't a real group. That's no way to classify people.

ScipioAfricanus · 20/07/2018 21:06

Kindness - yes. I think kindness has got us into a lot of deep water here. It’s a kindness, for me, to call a man ‘she’ because he has decided that he’s a ‘woman’. The same way I would kindly call a toddler ‘Superman’ or talk about long dead family relatives as if alive with a relative who has Alzheimer’s. I don’t think most people who consider themselves allies of trans people think they are being anything other than kind.

And at some point, this kindness wasn’t enough. That’s when I realised how unkind the people we’d been being kind to were to women, unkind enough to demand our identity as theirs at the expense of our own (‘cis’).

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:10

I used to wish I was as kind as the women who used preferred pronouns, but I could never bring myself to do that - to lie. I have a serious issue with lying...it is like my mouth can not speak words that aren't truth. I wondered if I was unkind as a person. 🤔

But now I see I was right.

Humandignity · 20/07/2018 21:12

And then there are those who actually believe that surgery and hormone treatments do change the biological sex. Because, after all, sex is not only defined by chromosomes, but also hormone levels and gonads. So, if you make the surgical and hormonal changes, you‘ve actually changed your sex. People really believe that.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:13

Scipio - you are so kind, as are all the women who showed compassion. Compassion is always a good thing. It's lovely.

I am a cynical person and I think I KNEW men, once given an inch, would take a mile and then some.

LastGirlOnTheLeft · 20/07/2018 21:15

Human, I think Snappity said something along those lines...that she believed people changed sex once hormones were affected. God love her!

Italiangreyhound · 20/07/2018 21:21

I agree with @CertainHalfDesertedStreets

"I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

And we're back to Schroedinger's Woman..."

And because they are so keen to be seen as women not trans women they are attempting to erase both women and trans women.

They do not seem to have much interest in trans men!

Humandignity · 20/07/2018 21:25

LastGirl I will have to check who snappity is, since I returned to mumsnet only recently after a looong break. (Goes over to search function)

Gncq · 20/07/2018 21:40

Don't do it human your health will suffer..

FermatsTheorem · 20/07/2018 21:41

"I think when they say TWAW they mean, 'the definition of women has changed you poor fool!! Did no-one tell you?' So in that sense they both believe and don't believe.

Yes, that's exactly what is going on. The argument seems to go "po-mo word salad, 'woman' is a social construct, we're redefining to mean someone who performs femininity/someone who does the shit work of changing nappies and looking after elderly relatives" (because while we want the women we pay attention to to look glamorous, we also need the old fashioned cunty kind to keep doing the shit work), followed by "faux-science word salad, sex is now to be understood as a social construct, intersex blah, clownfish blah, hormone washes blah... complete first year philosophy student misunderstanding of Hume on natural kinds, blah... bit of Foucault who we didn't understand either, maybe a dash of Wittgenstein who we definitely didn't understand, blah, blah blah..."

CertainHalfDesertedStreets · 20/07/2018 21:42

Someone save Human!!

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 20/07/2018 21:45

Its too late certain

We could try yelling

HUMAN COME BACK, KEEP AWAY FROM ADVANCED SEARCH...COME BACK INTO THE LIGHT!!!!

FermatsTheorem · 20/07/2018 21:46

It's like the scene at the end of the new Ghostbusters - diving into the rift to save Melissa McCarthy!