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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?

238 replies

DonkeySkin · 20/07/2018 18:02

Inspired by a Glinner Twitter thread...

In which Graham Linehan stated that Stonewall advisor Alex Drummond was not female, and that anyone who believes otherwise is 'nuts'. He was inundated with people arguing this point, including some accusing him of 'defining women by gender stereotypes'. Someone else tweeted separately in another thread (paraphrasing), 'I had no idea this many people were this crazy.'

But the thing is... they're not crazy, are they? All the people who espouse the ideology of 'gender identity', which that holds that male and female are a feeling-state, rather than a physical fact.

GC feminists often describe such people as 'delusional', but this is ascribing a level of good faith to them that is undeserved. People who are willing to state outright that a male person can be female if he says so aren't delusional. THEY ARE LIARS. They are lying when they say that sex is a social construct, and no one can tell the difference between male and female human beings, and they need to be called on this lie, not indulged with esoteric arguments about linguistics, metaphysics and (inevitably) intersex conditions.

Every single person on that thread arguing with Linehan knows as well as he does that Alex Drummond isn't female. So even arguing the point with them is attributing a weird legitimacy to this lie, by assuming that the people repeating it are making a good-faith argument.

Let me reiterate: nobody actually believes this. Every politician and high-profile person who smugly intones: 'Trans women are women' is perfectly aware that male human beings aren't female human beings. No one is truly confused about the difference between the class of persons who have the potential to impregnate, and the class of persons who have the potential to get pregnant. Nobody has lost their ability to tell the two sexes apart, and there is no way anyone can cognitively trick themselves into perceiving an obviously male-looking person as a woman.

So the disagreement about whether 'trans women are women' isn't a real disagreement. It's a cover for a different argument altogether.

This isn't a dispute between people who believe that male human beings are really female if they say so, and people who don't believe it. Because NOBODY believes that. What we are actually arguing about is whether female human beings should be permitted to define ourselves separately from males.

When people say 'trans women are women', they are not expressing a sincere belief that adult human males can become adult human females. They are asserting men's right to claim membership of the same ontological category as women, on their terms whenever they so wish. Conversely, and just as importantly, they are also denying the right of human females to have a separate ontological category to ourselves.

Feminists should not be reduced to arguing that women and girls exist as a real material thing in the world. Everyone already knows this. We need to stop arguing about whether 'trans women are women' and move the argument onto its true ground, by putting the case that women have the right to define ourselves – in language and in law – separately from males. Female human beings have the right to an ontological category to ourselves, a name to ourselves and the language to define our physical and social reality. And let the trans ideologues and their 'feminist' supporters argue the opposite, in all its stark brazen misogyny, if they wish.

OP posts:
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ouda · 22/07/2018 00:00

It's about male violence against women.

It has nothing to do with genuine transwomen's rights (or transmen's rights), who are a very small group of people who largely mind their own business and women have no problem with.

This is about abusive men using the issue of trans rights as a weapon to attack women's rights. They know that they've been spotted and we're on to them, which is why they've upped the ante with all the literal violence shit and the no platforming in an attempt to prevent the discussion going any further.

Where even that isn't working, they've even started actual physical attacks, bomb threat etc.

Unfortunately it's part of the wider far right reaction against democracy and equality going on the moment, from Trump to Brexit to incels to Labour's anti-Semitism etc. All part of the rise of irrationality.

Materialist · 22/07/2018 00:50

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Floorplan · 22/07/2018 01:10

Jesus do you really think so. I'm blown away...I am so naive. Why would they be so manipulative....oh yeah time to get my Lundy Bancroft book off the shelf.

Floorplan · 22/07/2018 01:11

But some of thone young transwomen are so convincing so vulnerable seeming are they just cannonfodder

LaylaAlexandrovna · 22/07/2018 02:35

This post says everything succinctly and will help a lot in further discussions. It's already being rt'd on Twit. Thanks so much.

nauticant · 22/07/2018 09:30

I don't think there's an underlying plan. I think many things are happening together.

A combination of gender identity politics and post-truth has given us a broadened trans umbrella offering amazing opportunities for power and control. No barriers to entry, with all within being the most victimised people ever. Get under the umberlla and anyone who opposes you is Hitler.

The game changed when people outside the umbrella realised that power was up for grabs. This brought in lefty dudebros and MRAs delighting in having a stick to beat uppity women, SJWs being able to enforce morality hierarchies with their peers cheering them on, authoritarians being given remarkable powers in what they're able to make people do, and God-complex surgeons being given live human guinea pigs on which to perform experimental and extreme body modification surgeries (and even better, on children's bodies).

To my mind it's more of a number of overlapping land grabs than a masterplan.

Mxyzptlk · 22/07/2018 11:08

But some of thone young transwomen are so convincing so vulnerable seeming are they just cannonfodder

Some are cannonfodder, some are acting.
'Vulnerable' is not an essential condition for being female.

I think Materialist and nauticant have nailed it.

Yspadadden · 22/07/2018 12:04

That's up to men to negotiate.

Yspadadden · 22/07/2018 12:05

Oop - the above was meant to be a reply to 'is it okay to say trans men are men.

LangCleg · 22/07/2018 12:46

To my mind it's more of a number of overlapping land grabs than a masterplan.

Yes - and laying bare deep-rooted and institutionalised societal misogyny because without that, the land grabs wouldn't work.

OvaHere · 22/07/2018 13:51

This is such an incredible thread. I wish all our spineless politicians would read it. Then again a land grab against women may well suit many agendas in parliament.

seafret · 22/07/2018 18:22

To my mind it's more of a number of overlapping land grabs than a masterplan

I agree. There will always be certain sorts of people who look for the edge, an angle, an advantage in a predatory way and se which way the wnd is blowing. And no doubt that misogyny is so beneficial to men that even the good ones could get used to it - a lovely pleasing wife at home who takes care of and cossets you emotionally and mentally? Sometimes even I would like that!!!

The big gorillas are at least more obvious but it is the others who really have to worry about. Like Tump even We are all agahst with him and it is most distracting, but who else is working and profiting from him behind the scenes? He'd have been assassinated or impeached if he wasn't useful to someone of clout.

We need a venn diagram of where these interests 'intersect' as the POMOs say (i hate that word).

This is such an incredible thread. I wish all our spineless politicians would read it. Then again a land grab against women may well suit many agendas in parliament.

It absolutely does suit many agendas in parliament/ power. How else have women still only got a minority of power dspite being the majority of people?

Ereshkigal · 23/07/2018 21:05

LOL. "What the fuck does biologically male even mean?"

twitter.com/RachelTheParrot/status/1021259145746448385?s=20

Ereshkigal · 23/07/2018 22:10

@Bowlofbabelfish

Read and weep at how many foolish reality deniers liked this post.

twitter.com/lisaquestions/status/1021256361772867584?s=20

Ereshkigal · 23/07/2018 22:12

There is a sort smile that psychologists call the "Duper's Delight." It's a crooked smile, with closed lips, a half smirk, and once you see it on an autogynephilic transwoman, you can't unsee it. You'll see it on most of their selfies. You'll see it sometimes on the blue-haired handmaidens, too.

Yes, this exactly. It's what narcissists do when they get away with something outrageous.

AngryAttackKittens · 23/07/2018 22:21

Sex is such a garbage concept. People only ever invoke it as an endrun around gender, and almost no one who brings it up knows what they're even meaning to reference when they do. They assume birth genitals, karyotype and phenotype are somehow identical and they're so not

Yep, that's the only time people ever talk about sex, when they're trying to oppress transwomen! Totally irrelevant to human societies otherwise. All those little girls whose were victims of FGM, that was done because they demonstrated an interest in playing with dolls.

It's honestly not even worth engaging with that level of batshit.

Ereshkigal · 23/07/2018 22:59

Yep, that's the only time people ever talk about sex, when they're trying to oppress transwomen! Totally irrelevant to human societies otherwise

They are so stupid and unthinking and blinkered it's frightening.

SirVixofVixHall · 23/07/2018 23:26

@Ereshkigal I can’t see how many likes because I’m blocked. I’ve no idea who that person is, never engaged with them, yet they have blocked me. Honestly what are they so afraid of ? The voice of reason ?

MisDescamisados · 23/07/2018 23:40

This all the way

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?
Italiangreyhound · 24/07/2018 00:05

@MisDescamisados great idea.

Ereshkigal · 24/07/2018 01:06

Honestly what are they so afraid of ? The voice of reason ?

Yes. A challenge to their fragile sense of self identity or cognitive dissonance.

momszilla · 17/08/2018 11:15

Smile sex based right we need to protect

Are we arguing about the wrong thing?
stillathing · 17/08/2018 11:37

momzilla what a list! Deserving of its own thread perhaps?

TransplantsArePlants · 17/08/2018 15:36

@momzilla

Please start a new thread, as stillathing says

Where did you get that list?

Ereshkigal · 17/08/2018 16:31

I've seen it on gendertrender before.