FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

No I was talking to Snappity Daim. That’s why I had their name in the post.

FWR needs to regain a balance

I do wholeheartedly agree with this final statement in the OP.

I think this thread demonstrates it clearly.

Because when my partner sees me reading MumsNet it upsets her. So I will be here less when she is about.

It's up to you whether you want to be here. If your partner has a problem, then I'd be concerned about your relationship and discussing your presence here with them rather than trying to control what women here say.

If you are being emotionally pressured not to post here or you are posting here secretly that doesn't say much for your relationship.

I'm wondering if you might be better in another sector of MN tbh.

R0wantrees

That book looks good - have you read it?

You’re also trying to manipulate me, and manipulate my opinion and that pisses me right off, and this makes me less likely to be supportive. If you do that to me, you might want to consider to how many others you also do similar, and whether this approach is likely to achieve your aim.

No. I am suggesting that the failure to implement the MumsNet Talk Guidelines against transphobia is umbalancimg FWR to the extent that few trans people and trans inclusive feminists post here so that the aggregate effect is significantly toxic to trans people. I am not saying anything about any individuals.

Your post addressing me directly and quoting me was incredibly manipulative. It’s disingenuous to suggest otherwise.

Sausage do I want to know about the tampon posts

Using they or keep repeating their name to avoid pronouns is transphobia and it should be banned.

When I talk about my DC on here, I use ‘they’ exclusively.

I find this extreme policing of language oppressive and unnecessary. I don’t want to misgender anyone, and I would not do so deliberately to cause offence, but really you cannot reasonably say that using ‘they’ or a person’s name instead of a gendered pronoun is transphobic.

‘They’ is not ‘the pronoun for gender neutral’ exclusively.

Humans cannot and do not change sex.

Insisting people believe in this will rain down a HUGE backlash on trans people.

No one wants that.

Campaign for tolerance and inclusivity by all means, but stop policing language and thought. You can’t say black is white and make it so.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away.

It's not done it very effectively, has it? You've been posting on this thread constantly since before 7am.

Womanformallyknownaswoman

I've started to read it.

Its a collection of viewpoints & perspectives edited by Dr Az Hakeem.

It raises a lot of important issues.

A high percentage of the profits go to a mental health charity.

It was mentioned on this thread on Wednesday:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303573-This-is-what-the-Portman-Clinic-had-to-say-about-Gender-Transition-in-2002

Using they or keep repeating their name to avoid pronouns is transphobia and it should be banned

You have already made it illegal to tell the truth. You now want it to be illegal to refuse to tell a lie.

Feminists have Ben saying for a long time that nothing would be good enough. You keep going us more examples of how that's true.

For anyone feeling sorry for Snappity's partner, they might want to AS 'J4nice', who's heartwarming comments include 'Victory!' (in reference to the campaign for the closure of Vancouver Rape Crisis Center), and various ramblings about porn, dildos, and viagra.

insisting people believe in this will rain down a HUGE backlash on trans people.

Exactly! All this ‘my penis is female shite’ Is not going down well with the general public, who were previously very live and let live. The people saying this sort of stuff can only by trying to incite transphobia, they cannot possibly believe their stance is helpful to transsexuals

If you need to leave for the good of your relationship, snappity, then do that (though I suggest it does not say good things about your relationship, which you may wish to find help with - the relationships board here can be very helpful).

But can I just point out how emotionally manipulative you're being with that approach? you're asking people here to be responsible for issues in your relationship, and to modify our behaviour because of problems it causes you.

Nobody's going to do that. It's not a reasonable expectation. It's no more reasonable than your position that the polite fudge of using "they" to accommodate the irreconcilable differences of opinion on pronouns is unacceptable. What has led you to the point in your life where you can't accept that other people have the right to think, feel and act in ways that differ from you?

I also think that stepping away from MN would be a good decision for you. Go back into the real world and connect with your friends. Go well. Nobody here wishes you ill. We just disagree with you.

No one is being excluded.

It's not my fault nor anyone elses here that trans people don't want to discuss things and just want everything their way without anyone questioning whether it's really a good idea (for their benefit as much as women's).

Historically rights evolved in a certain way which has allowed them to endure. There is a lack of understanding of that, which has potential to threat all rights.

There is a conflation of right = automatic acceptance which is fundamentally wrong.

And there is a lack of understanding of how and why safeguarding structures evolved the way they did.

Not of this is anti-trans. Indeed much is pro-trans.

But there are far too many with fingers in their ears going 'wah wah it's just cos you don't like me'. Like spoilt children just demanding things.

They think they know better than people who have spent a lot of their lives as rights activists and are experienced and knowledgeable about rights.

Frankly that's disrespectful, rude and ultimately self defeating.

Don't be surprised when people passionate about their rights (and rights in general) stand up and defend them and how they work.

Unfortunately Snappity is what we might call a 'flying monkey' when the abusive relation cannot break through the blockages to access their victim.

Can you elaborate on this snappity? I'm missing why one is okay and the other isn't? Obviously the way you worded it is emotive and intended to influence, but taking that out, I still don't see the difference

"There is a huge difference between saying that the law should be changed and saying that women with s GRC are not sex = female. One is an acceptable abstract - the other is unacceptably denying the legal status of a vulnerable group."

Not to make it all about me... but I did post about an hour ago about how I was genuinely upset about something snappity posted but this has been completely ignored by op because it doesn’t fit her argument that everyone else is a nasty pasty who doesn’t care about other people’s feelings.

Well, be careful what you wish for is all I will say, as once everyone is a woman (no prefix), no one will give a shit about anything you have to say or give a shit about any of your feelings that they have hurt.

GoldenWonderwall and DW I’m sure the lurkers have noted that, along with the refusal to answer certain questions!

GoldenWonderwall
Its such an important point that you make. You're not alone.

This should be the focus: the impact on women and children.

Snap, I hope your belief that there's potential for abuse with self ID didn't cause problems with your partner.

I notice you don't mention it much.

Golden that's perfectly normal unfortunately. I've asked a few questions recently and under a NC that always went unanswered.

I think it's a mix of 'unknown' or less prolific posters so it's not as much fun to wind up and try and get banned and simple refusal to answer because it means telling the truth.

Is j4nuce your partner, Snappity?