FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

Perhaps we could focus on the important point Golden made earlier-?

"I lurk more than I post but the most offensive thing I’ve read on here lately was the op herself. I can’t remember which thread (perhaps the Jimmy Saville one) but it actually really hurt my feelings. Essentially it made me wonder how many people think I’m choosing to be a woman who looks like a woman and therefore the sexual violence I have endured is simply a result of my choice to be a woman because it’s a free choice and I could simply identify as a man and it would never happen. It’s massively upsetting to me to have things that happen solely or mostly to women because of their biology to be rewritten as things that happen to an identity that can be changed on someone’s say so.

I don’t identify with my oppression, leave me alone"

I suspect it is the reason why Snappity hasn't yet been banned, even with all their deletions...unlike the GC people with less deletions who have been shown the door.

Where is all this alleged "anti-trans" stuff?

I've seen anti-misogyny, anti-homophobia and anti-childhood medicalisation.

Using "they" in reference to a trans person is a sensible compromise. It isn't transphobic.

Stating biological facts is not transphobic.

There is nothing "anti-trans" about women standing up to fight for the maintenance of their rights and protection.

Snappity. If you dislike FWR so much, and your partner is getting so upset about you being here, why do you keep posting? It smacks of masochism on your part, and sadism towards your partner.

I wish you and your partner all the best, but perhaps FWR isn't the best place for you to be right now.

Go well.

I've only seen unpleasantness from men in here.

I didn't pick it up on the thread in question but someone claimed that you have to know "natal" sex to monitor kidney function accurately. That is totally wrong. When someone transitions and takes hormones the baseline moves from male to female (or vice versa) over the course of about 5 years. Kidneys change sex.

And it is this view that led to the death of a transman...

R0wantrees

I missed that post!! Appreciate the link - very interesting discussion. Seems like the short-termism and under-resourced NHS force short-term expedient treatments rather than the long-term deep work that many need.

I'll get hold of that book :)

Op can I ask a question?

Say a transwoman, pre op/with penis, is on a dating site and states they are a woman, because TWAW, a straight man shows an interest and they arrange a date. He doesn't pick up they are trans because they pass quite well and wear clothing that hides things well.

Do you think, given the man believes he is dating a woman, the transwoman should reveal they are actually pre op at any stage before it becomes obvious?

Actually, seeing the duluth wheel reminds me... there is a free pdf copy of "why does he do that" online atm...
unityandstruggle.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/Lundy_Why-does-he-do-that.pdf

There is a huge difference between saying that the law should be changed and saying that women with s GRC are not sex = female. One is an acceptable abstract - the other is unacceptably denying the legal status of a vulnerable group.

The law is IMO wrong and stupid and undermines the legal status of female sex as a protected group. I want it changed. How is that any different?

I was joking about making it all about me.

No good comes from telling other people to stfu.

I agree it's not pleasant. It worries me, distresses me, and makes me angry to read people denying biology and the dismantling of the meaning of words and the lies and the creeping erosion of rationality and of women's rights. But that doesn't mean FWR shouldn't be here - in fact we need it more than ever.

Buh-bye now! 👋

Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

“She?? She?!! My pronouns are They you cunt!”
(Trans activist screech at the Bristol meeting protest).

Make up your minds!!

Snappity
Its been interesting reading your posts. When you go, go well.

golden
I totally agree with you.
Not just on an individual basis - the TRA position about identification ignores:
*forced marriage
*child marriage and rape
*female genital mutilation
*menstrual taboo preventing female education
*menstrual taboo causing women to die when ostracized from their family (e.g. from exposure)
*rape/sexual assault of women and girls around the world

There is loads and it is so offensive yo claim females can a) identify out of this and b) choose it in some way

It is the epitome of "white middle class feminism" really - yet it's GC feminists who get accused of that. Total DARVO

The law is IMO wrong and stupid and undermines the legal status of female sex as a protected group. I want it changed. How is that any different?

That's your right. But saying that someone who has the legal status of sex + gender = female is not female and a woman isn't acceptable.

Unacceptable to you. But you are not the boss (yet) of us.

Snappity re: pronoun use, I can't speak for everyone but in your example re: Jane

• Can I bring Jane for dinner next week?” “ Yeah sure, it’s BBQ, if she is vegetarian let me know I can whip up some nice veggie stuff." If gender is known, we use it. And for trans women their gender is known. Using they or keep repeating their name to avoid pronouns is transphobia and it should be banned.

In your example above Jane is singular so 'she' is the correct pronoun (based on probability because names are not essentially gendered just culturally).

But 'trans women' is a plural term isn't it?

So have been using 'they' in that context because it's the plural pronoun, not because I don't believe a transwoman should be addressed by their preferred pronoun.

I am interested in this as a trans friend, who lives in Canada, has made me aware that there are a range of possible 'preferred' pronouns such as 'zie' and 'zir' and these are usually used in relation to an individual's stated preference. As I don't know anything about individual posters and what their status is or their preferred pronoun, I've been using 'they' for the plural as thought it was least likely to be offensive. If that's not the case then I apologise.

But as the pronoun choices are many, it would be helpful to posters like me, if people who have preferences for pronouns say what these are. If they do this I personally will do my very best to adhere to them. On large threads may get confused as can’t always rtwf.

Hi op, I appreciate I'm probably not as interesting to engage with but it would be great if you could answer my question above ^

I'm genuinely interested in what you think, as I think it's a very likely scenario if not already happening.

Basically until everyone shares your world view and does exactly what you say, including use of language, and anything else you deem and agree the set instructions of how it should all work, you won't be sated.

Trying to control people and the world is a strategy of utter futility.

Snappily the law itself acknowledges that transwomen are not literally women by allowing exemptions within the Equality Act. Do you disagree with this?

You are right OP. Females having to fight for their rights all over again in the 21st century because some people have decided they need to be erased isn't pleasant.

You sound like you need to take a break for the sake of your mental health. Go well.

Hence a GRC being a gender recognition certificate. The clue is in the name. The certificate recognises gender. Hence the EA exemptions can still apply.

If it was sex recognition it would be called that. But it's not.