FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

I have to assume that Snappity is taking the piss now. Nobody could seriously think that about sport, could they?

And you join us for the Football World Cup -High T- finals.

Next week, on cable tv, because we don't really care, it's the Low-T World Cup football final.

Same shit, dressed up as the old shit. But at least transwomen can insert themselves into the Low-T world without anyone blinking an eye. Because the word 'woman' has been erased.

(Somehow, don't think men will be going for the new sporting definitions!)

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

Janice asked Maria Miller that question, or a very similar one. Miller said it was too difficult to answer.

Exactly who are you referring to when you say ''women have advantages in terms of suppleness'?

I think they mean the little girls with the ribbons making swirly dance and tumbling moves in what they call the floor exercises.
We fought like badgers for the right to play competitive sports.
We will not submit.

I have to assume that Snappity is taking the piss now.

I'm starting to think we should just let Snappity get on with it & be grateful for the help in peak transing lurkers.

R0wantrees. Whenever people claim that the younger generations believe twaw, I think of that video. Transpeople sometimes forget that experiences lead women to be gender critical.

My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist

Only an incredibly stupid person or an extremely goady fucker would make such a statement.

I have to assume that Snappity is taking the piss now. Nobody could seriously think that about sport, could they?

Who was it people had virtually this exact conversation with a while ago? Followed by ‘Meh, I’m not really interested in sports (so fuck those who are)’. SuperMatch or someone else? SuperMatch was also the one changing ‘attributes’ of sex to ‘aspects’ of sex (as seen here...), and insisting all sorts of daft shit about the law.

You joining us in the plaice of suspicion Bertrand? (Sorry I really will stop now).

And yes! Supergamematch wasn't it?

Gymnastics is separated by sex...suppleness won't win you many medals on the rings or pommel horse-events which require extreme upper body strength. Have you seen the size of Louis Smith's arms?? Or is snappity suggesting that male gymnasts will be taking on the beam?

Despite their sole job to say something so offensive to women that they snap and are banned, it does take a certain kind of ego to cut off so much of their own nose, in order to spite their face.

I don't think Snappity realises that women tend not to snap around entitled individuals, as it's dangerous.

So the nose cutting just gets worse.

Personally, I'm all for it.

Given 177,000 women this month will be accessing mumsnet via this board, I wonder how many have joined this thread even in the last, say, hour?

My friends daughter has just become junior world champion in her sport. Because she only competed against females, in her age and weight class, she is now WORLD champion. Snappity, you are the biggest arse I've ever had the misfortune to meet online.

I find myself thinking that women can be forgiven for believing that the whole push towards self-id is about shoving women aside because we do not matter. It's what some men want that counts and nothing else.

Datun I know what you're saying. We're just here chilling, responding back mostly with an eyebrow raised and a rational argument back.

It must be so frustrating.

And on a more serious note, to Datun's post about women tend not to snap around entitled individuals, as it's dangerous , many recognise the baiting behaviour and the 'consequences' and are skilled at negotiating around it.

There are many reasons for feminism, and none of them are fun, nor 'game playing' (referring to another thread today).

Actually we were told in ballet that suppleness limits jumping power and that men aren't encouraged to be too flexible for that reason.
And anyway, flexibility is only one small part of gymnastics

There's no real definition of the trans umbrella, just a collection of various groups

Sorry snappity this definition doesn't work for me. If you expect women to open up single sex spaces then you really need to define who that includes, so that we have informed consent. Or does that not matter?

There's no real definition of the trans umbrella, just a collection of various groups

Sorry snappity this definition doesn't work for me. If you expect women to open up single sex spaces then you really need to define who that includes, so that we have informed consent. Or does that not matter?

I find it breathtaking that I'm told I'm being 'hateful' when it's perfectly clear that what's happening is women are being expected to open up their spaces - and abandon any sense of privacy and safety - to any man who wants to get in them.

Gymnastics is separated by sex...suppleness won't win you many medals on the rings or pommel horse-events which require extreme upper body strength. Have you seen the size of Louis Smith's arms?? Or is snappity suggesting that male gymnasts will be taking on the beam?

Yes, I am suggesting promoting things like the beam.

Most sports have been designed by men and give men a natural advantage. That's why we end up with separate women's events because the disadvantage to women is inherent in the rules of the sport which is why, even when we get separate events for women they are usually seen as lesser than the men.

Women should be designing and promoting sports where they have a natural advantage over men, or neutral. So instead of running over hurdles, have ducking under a bar so that height is a disadvantage.

If women can't see that sports have been designed to disadvantage women and that the answer is to design sports that eliminate that disadvantage then I despair. I thought this was a feminism section - so design and promote sports which suit women not men.

Snappity what about all the women currently playing the existing sports? What happens to them?

If women can't see that sports have been designed to disadvantage women and that the answer is to design sports that eliminate that disadvantage then I despair. I thought this was a feminism section - so design and promote sports which suit women not men.

Women don't want to "design" new sports, mate - they want to compete in the ones that already exist, against each other. I don't see why they should have to bow out because you've decided it's "patronising as fuck" to acknowledge that men have an inherent, massive physiological advantage.

Pffft! Thanks for the laughs Snappity Women have been doing sport all wrong all this time.

But I'm confused. If we're elmininating sex-based sports, and just focusing on the T-levels, as per your previous posts, who are the 'women' you're referring to in your post?

Because sport suddenly becomes nothing to do with 'women' - as you said, sigh, it's patronising as fuck to segregate sports between men and women.

So who are these mythological 'women' designing and promoting sports where we're all ducking under a fucking bar?

Are you saying sports like tennis and athletics don't suit women? Just because women might not be able to beat men it doesn't mean they aren't great at those sports. It sounds like you are actually saying that any sport where men have an advantage over women, women need to give it up and accept they can't compete. Now I too think you are on a massive wind up, like those spoof twitter accounts designed to see just how many people who are desperate to seem right on that they can get to agree with the utter nonsense they post.

ducking under a bar