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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FWR more unpleasant than ever

1000 replies

Snappity · 14/07/2018 06:43

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 15/07/2018 18:56

There's no real definition of the trans umbrella, just a collection of various groups.

So then we come back to men who just like presenting as women sometimes, demand full access to women's spaces when they want it & throw tantrums when challenged. Like Travis Alabanza, Alok, Pips Bunce, Eddie Izzard.

Do you think they should be able to walk into spaces where women are naked & / or vulnerable, Snappity? And if not, how do we stop them while allowing genuine transwomen in?

duckfuckduck · 15/07/2018 18:58

So you're happy to throw my natal female daughter who is at the top of her sport as a female under the bus? What would you say to her when she asks why she is no longer able to play for the national team? Why should my daughter be pushed into a particular sport when she is good - exceptionally good - at a different one when the exemptions as currently applied are allowed?

BertrandRussell · 15/07/2018 19:00

“My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist”

Blimey! So you think it’s OK for men and boys to win everything?

Oh, and do you think kids at school should have their testosterone tested?
(It’s not just testosterone, by the way)

Vickyyyy · 15/07/2018 19:01

My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist but women should push sports like gymnastics where women have advantages in terms of suppleness etc.

How is it patronizing?! Its recognizing the biological advantages men have over women, and no its more than just testosterone levels too.

I mean, as someone else in the thread said, if sports were mixed sex, Serena Williams wouldn't even be in the top 100. She would be easily beaten by average male players because..biology.

duckfuckduck · 15/07/2018 19:02

My daughter wouldn't even make her local town team if the sport she plays was mixed sex.

Datun · 15/07/2018 19:05

And if this transwoman has low testosterone? It's acceptable to you that they play on the women's team?

FWR more unpleasant than ever
FlippinFumin · 15/07/2018 19:05

Snappity does like to sigh, is that a thing for trans women?

Anyway, with reference to men not having spaces that trans men could lay claim to. Up north almost every former mining village will have a Working Mens Club, and women are not allowed in, well they are allowed to work there but not be members. There are also in most towns and citie 'Clubs' where women are not allowed, well not allowed as members, if they are stripping and dancing it is ok! And in some larger cities, there are Gentlemen's Clubs that do not allow any women, at all, very posh private members clubs. So there are spaces for men only. I wonder what they would think about self id? They would not be able to bar women who identify as men, would they?

Could this be the next thing for Man Friday?

pombear · 15/07/2018 19:06

Sighs. Fires up internet on a sunny evening, knowing it makes no difference to your point of view, but I'm coming back for the lurkers, like I was a while back. The more you post, the more they go 'eh?'!

The reasons for the 'big tent' you describe are pretty obvious:-

Transmen are, by definition, biologically female and very likely to be female-socialised from birth, so are unlikely to make such a song and dance about getting into male-bodied spaces as male-born people do about getting into female spaces. It's socialisation, baby!

Feminism exists because the power balance between males and females exist. Sex and sexuality also has a power balance entrenched.

Therefore:
Why are men not campaigning for the definition of men? Because no one with power is pushing against the definition of male. Females, even when they identify as transmen, rarely have the platform or power to campaign.

Gay men are not protesting at Pride to exclude trans men or with banners about gay erasure. Because of the sexual and physical power imbalance, most sane people here realise that transmen attempting to upturn the definition of homosexual men are on a losing wicket from day one. And if you look, the majority of transmen appear to be 'straight' - ie attracted to females (ie they're technically lesbians, so not concerned with gay men dismissing them).
(Though I can see a gradual thought-police ideology growing, and more and more gay men saying 'fuck that shit')

There's no real definition of the trans umbrella, just a collection of various groups. Whoah-hah up there. There's a fantastic definition that official bodies seem to be swallowing, as many of us have shown you via Stonewall and people like Tara Hewitt. You seem to ignore our evidence that definitions now include the drag queens, the men with a sexual fetish, the part-time trans that the big guns acknowledge. You refuse to engage with anyone asking you what your definition of a transwoman is.

The only people who obsess about definitions are gender critical feminists, and pretty much to exclude trans women. Obsess. That's an interesting word. Almost aligned to being 'hysterical'. Just 'irrational women' getting their 'knickers in a twist'.

We're 'obsessing'because we can see how this ideology is directly affecting and challenging the protected rights of biological females.

I'm not sure if you know this, but a female's stamina increases as she ages. Ultra marathon runners who do well in later age are often females. Like Sia says 'I've got stamina'.

(Sorry to those who don't like pics/links:)

(And yes, to anyone who says 'oh but Sia supports trans rights - I do too, just not those that quosh female rights)
ToeToToe · 15/07/2018 19:06

So for women to take part in separate sporting events is now is it? We'll just have no sex-based segregation in sport at all?

There is no collateral damage to women too great, when it comes to including transwomen, is there?

Women will basically be outclassed and eliminated by men in the majority of competitive sports - running, tennis, football, rugby, swimming. But that's ok - according to snappity, they can concentrate on gymnastics Angry Oh, we'll let them have dance as well, and maybe flower arranging, shall we?

VickyEadie · 15/07/2018 19:06

My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist but women should push sports like gymnastics where women have advantages in terms of suppleness etc.

If separate competitive sporting events must exist - sigh - then what matters most is testosterone. Anyone who has had high testosterone for any reason should be in one group, and anyone with lifetime low testosterone in the other group. It is what really matters and avoids all the difficulties about how to define sex.

I think you'll find that women in sport do not agree that it's "patronising as fuck", because they wouldn't get a fucking LOOK IN if there were not separate sports.

There are separate sports for a reason - the reason being that men have a massive physical advantage (and it' not just testosterone, which you must know full well). Female members of my family are junior British record holders in their chosen events. They just wouldn't be able to compete at national (let alone international) level if there were not separate sports, because of the physical advantage men have.

How can you come on here - moan about people not agreeing with you - and then make such a misogynistic remark about women's sport? Your view would END women's elite sport. END it.

R0wantrees · 15/07/2018 19:08

My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist but women should push sports like gymnastics where women have advantages in terms of suppleness etc

This view is rather patronising (and ill-informed)

pombear · 15/07/2018 19:11

*My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist but women should push sports like gymnastics where women have advantages in terms of suppleness etc.

If separate competitive sporting events must exist - sigh - then what matters most is testosterone.*

Patronising as fuck

Women's sports are patronising as fuck

I know, all you incredible FWR women who have stopped posting on this thread with respect for your concerns about Snappity's wellbeing.

But this. Takes the Biscuit

But, yay, thanks for giving us women gymnastics, 'cos we're like, 'supple' and everything. Does that mean transwomen can't compete, cos they're not 'supple' and everything? Does that mean they're physiologically different from [the word we cannot say]?

Every post you make, you expose yourself for who you are.

VickyEadie · 15/07/2018 19:13

I'm curious as to why Snappity singles out gymnastics, given that there IS separate men's gymnastics and all that.

VickyEadie · 15/07/2018 19:15

"Patronising". Fucking "PATRONISING".

Dame Kelly Holmes - how patronised do you feel? Because apparently, you should have had to compete against men and been beaten out of sight at club level by humans with different and superior physiology.

Popchyk · 15/07/2018 19:17

I'm guessing those men who self-identify as women (without surgery) foresee a problem in the leotard department pom.

And that's why women can have gymnastics all to ourselves.

Lucky us.

GardenGeek · 15/07/2018 19:18

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Datun · 15/07/2018 19:18

You do realise snappity, don't you, that your pretend air of reason makes what you say sound worse not better?

Refusing to define transwomen on the grounds that it would incriminate you.

Refusing to confirm that your rationale means two men having anal sex is lesbian sex.

Deciding that women's sport needs to go, apart from possibly pre-approved feminine sport.

If your partner did manage to get anybody, to do anything, around protocols, that's utterly shocking.

This is all unhinged.

Do go on.

duckfuckduck · 15/07/2018 19:18

I am so angry on behalf of my daughter who trains every day of the week, and is recognised as a good competitor, and yet Snappity sees no problem with removing that from her at the drop of a hat.

Well, Snappity, I think you just peaked me with that and your need to declare virginity comment on the other thread.

pombear · 15/07/2018 19:19

PS Snappity - how do 'women' "push" gymnastics? Exactly who are you referring to when you say ''women have advantages in terms of suppleness'? Did you accidentally mean 'biological women' here?

So 'biological' women should 'push' gymnastics because 'biological' women have advantages?

Whoops!

EmpressWeaponisedClitoris · 15/07/2018 19:20

Snappity does like to sigh, is that a thing for trans women?

Sighing & knitting.

pombear · 15/07/2018 19:22

I second Datun. Do go on!

R0wantrees · 15/07/2018 19:22

Janice Turner asked following a 100m high school race,

"Two male-bodied trans gender runners came first and second. What do you say to the girls who train so hard but can never win? Yet can’t even say: this is not fair."

twitter.com/VictoriaPeckham/status/1004682774920523776

Look for the girls' faces who come 3rd, 4th, 5th

FWR more unpleasant than ever
duckfuckduck · 15/07/2018 19:24

If transwomen are women then transwomen will push gymnastics. Where does that leave us.

VickyEadie · 15/07/2018 19:24

I think the notion that the extension of trans 'rights' will lead to the erasure of women's rights has been well and truly proven here.

pombear · 15/07/2018 19:28

Sigh ROwan
Didn't you realise that, according to Snappity

If separate competitive sporting events must exist - sigh - then what matters most is testosterone. Anyone who has had high testosterone for any reason should be in one group, and anyone with lifetime low testosterone in the other group. It is what really matters and avoids all the difficulties about how to define sex.

Females don't figure in this. (Though I struggle to understand how the transgender runners in your link post had a 'lifetime low testosterone' given they were born in 'the wrong body', haven't yet had 'treatment' so the testosterone may have had a chance to shape physiology, including bone structure, lung mass, etc).

New sports day for secondary schools - come along for mandatory testing of T before you're assigned to 'high-T' and 'low-T' running groups! (We'll be ignoring your biological sex from now on!)

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