FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

I'd still like you to answer why you think it is acceptable to keep misgendering the many transwomen who acknowledge they are not women, Snappity.

It doesn't which is why people want the requirement removed.

What part? This is about partners. Do you really think its totally fine for post operative trans people to not say they are trans when shagging someone? Obviously if pre op/non op it would be extremely obvious anyway but maybe not with a semi-passing transwoman if the guy was drunk or inexperienced with actual women, I guess. In such a case, of course it should be declared. Consent matters

Snappity

Are you going to answer my question about whether two men having anal sex could be described as lesbian sex if they identify as women?

*The petition to parliament is still running.

When it reached 10 000 the government responded:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

It is currently at 12 543

At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament*

Not likely to get 100,000 before it's closed.

More people care about the hunting act reform than fall for tin-pot conspiracies about trans people...and the GRA reform.

petition.parliament.uk/petitions/205852?reveal_response=yes#response-threshold

Snappity, what definition of transwomen are you using?

Why is a definition so important? Men do not campaign for a definition of man.
Gay men are not protesting at Pride to exclude trans men or with banners about gay erasure. There's no real definition of the trans umbrella, just a collection of various groups.

The only people who obsess about definitions are gender critical feminists, and pretty much to exclude trans women. Every other group seems to pretty much be a big tent and welcome everyone who says they belong there.

Because, Snappity, unless I know what definition you are using, as there are many and various definitions, I can't debate with you and know where we have common ground.

"Exactly what gender critical feminists claim it should be about - how to keep women, including trans women, safe from men."
Ah, right. Now for me that's only a part of the debate that we need to have. I am interested in things like sport, and the reporting and recording of crime, and access to programmes designed to redress the discrimination against women in various professional fields, to. And but 3. Do you have a view on the sport issue, by the way?

And actually, I have said more than once, I'm not gender critical. Stop putting me into a group I have told you I am not part of.

Sport interests me. It's an exception, currently, under EA. I have skin in the game as I have a daughter, a natal female, who is playing at a high level and has hopes of a scholarship to an elite university to play her sport, alongside her study.

Do you believe that exemption should remain, Snappity?

How can you expect us to accept that TWAW when you can't even define what a TW is?

Every other group seems to pretty much be a big tent and welcome everyone who says they belong there.

LOL what nonsense. 82% of the country appear to disagree.

tin-pot conspiracies about trans people

garam, Do you really not understand what the problem is here? This is not about trans people this is about women. Self-ID would mean that any man could declare himself to be a woman. Do you think men are ever a danger to women? A yes or no answer will do.

Not likely to get 100,000 before it's closed.

It's already succeeded. A full public consultation is happening. Rather than #nodebate as you'd no doubt prefer.

“Men do not campaign for a definition of man.”
Why might that be, do you think? Why are men not feeling the need to assert their existence? Think really hard now. Give that grey matter a workout.

Not likely to get 100,000 before it's closed

Deadline
12 September 2018

It may do. The consultation has started and there will be increasing amounts of discussion about it.

Why wouldn't you want a parliamentary debate?

'How can I help it?' he blubbered. 'How can I help seeing what is in front of my eyes? Two and two are four.'

'Sometimes, Winston. Sometimes they are five. Sometimes they are three. Sometimes they are all of them at once. You must try harder. It is not easy to become sane.'

--

"You believe that reality is something objective, external, existing in its own right. You also believe that the nature of reality is self-evident. When you delude yourself into thinking that you see something, you assume that everyone else sees the same thing as you. But I tell you, Winston, that reality is not external. Reality exists in the human mind, and nowhere else.

I'm pro-trans. People should be free to present how they choose.

Transwomen are men not women. Their XY chromosomes make it so. This is pro-reality, anti-falsehood. It is not anti-trans.

I don't know if I've misgendered you snappity because I have no idea which pronouns you prefer. You have a gender non-specific username.

You said that you and your partner are both ill so you rarely leave the house. Do you have support? Are you allowed out on your own? Does your partner read your posts? If your partner gets upset what is the impact on you? Are you allowed to disagree without being punished?

So you literally don't know how to define trans? "Transwomen are women but I don't know what counts as a transwoman?"

And come off it. Men aren't threatened by women in remotely the same way. What are transmen taking away from men after all? Not primogeniture claims, that's for sure. Not a threat to them in small spaces. Not taking sports medals or positions meant to give equality. The first "man" to give birth and breastfeed perhaps? Oh no I'm sure they all think that's just terrible.

Snappity

Two men? Lesbian sex? Definition of a transwoman?

Basic stuff.

Because, Snappity, unless I know what definition you are using, as there are many and various definitions, I can't debate with you and know where we have common ground.

Quite. I know some others disagree and I get where they are coming from when they say 'males are males' (and quite agree, also), but for me a post operative transsexual is quite different to a crossdresser, a 'transgender worship my female penis' type, or even an autogynephiliac (even though some of them do have the ops too so its very hard to distinguish)

Snappity which pronoun do you prefer?

I think the sport thing is really important. I’ve said before that my teenage ds is a good all round sportsman- good, but not top tier in his very sporty school. If he decided to identify as a girl, he would easily top the school records board- and he is only close in one event as a boy. How could that possibly be fair- but how could he be stopped if that’s what he chose to do?

And but 3. Do you have a view on the sport issue, by the way?

A few people have asked politely about sport.

My personal view is that separate sporting events for women is patronising as fuck and shouldn't exist but women should push sports like gymnastics where women have advantages in terms of suppleness etc.

If separate competitive sporting events must exist - sigh - then what matters most is testosterone. Anyone who has had high testosterone for any reason should be in one group, and anyone with lifetime low testosterone in the other group. It is what really matters and avoids all the difficulties about how to define sex.

And yes, some women (trans and otherwise) will end up in the high testosterone group.

Snappity is now busy on the ‘sex by deception’ thread demonstrating their disgust at informed consent

Every other group seems to pretty much be a big tent and welcome everyone who says they belong there.

So why spend your time here? If you believe that it's only a small number of women who don't believe TWAW, why do you and others invest so much time and energy into telling us we're wrong?

Come to think of it, why do people want to stop debate anywhere if they are so cock sure that everyone else agrees? Why the threats on twitter? Why use such agressive tactics to stop debate if they believe they have the truth on their side?