FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

Yep, these posts trying to force women to accept a specific point of view, irrespective of their own feelings and views on the matter, are pretty fem-phobic, in my opinion. Almost like a female view really just doesn't matter. How male....

Terfsup I live to please...but only if you're a man. Or a goldfish.

🐠

Perhaps a new stock answer on these threads? Let minnow...

Can't I be a goldfish? They're pwettier....and I am, after all, a female goldfish.

I don't know what to tell you, I think Apple's emojis are goldfishphobic 🐟

Cod we complain?

The net outcome of these puns will be to give me a haddock.

Or maybe I'm just being crabby.

That sort of punning has no plaice here.

Fishing for compliments, huh? Salmon once told me that I shouldn't mussel in on other people's conversations, but this subject just crabs me hook, line and sinker. I otter scampi off now out of this plaice...

Oh Cod, someone got there before me. The chips are well and tuna down.

Apologies to all for the silliness....I thought it was time for some from a female, that's all xxx

and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces

what are you objecting to? you have a point of view that almost everyone disagrees with, so what do you expect to happen? Do you think everybody else in the world should shut up because you don't like their point of view? most people think one thing, you think something else, has it occurred to you that most people may think differently to you because they are right and you are wrong?

Not sure that piss taking is particularly helpful, to be honest.

Snappity, you’re obviously aren’t going to address my earlier point. Can I try another one? If you think that everyone should accept that TWAW before any further discussion takes place, what do you think the discussion that followed would be about?

Yes Mum

But come on, answering seriously hasn't gotten anywhere. Snappity's ignored every single response and evaded absolutely every question. At what point are we allowed to acknowledge that their posts are themselves taking the piss?

We need to find out what definition of trans women Snappity is using. The haven’t answered me. I’ve asked more than once.

Yeah, sorry BertrandRussell I'm not trying to minimise a serious conversation, but I do find the whole concept that a man can turn into a woman just by saying he is a woman is ridiculous. As ridiculous as me saying I'm a goldfish......

Perhaps the problem is that 'female' has already been taken as a gender by women.

How about a new description with a more appropriate name, OP, that you could tailor to your particular needs?

We need to find out what definition of trans women Snappity is using. The [sic] haven’t answered me. I’ve asked more than once.

When you rudely misgender me why should I answer? But this proves too what I have been saying - the misgendering isn't restricted to trans women it is also applied to intersex women like me.

So women who want to dismantle patriarchy need to reject this notion of womanhood and the statement transwomen are women with all we've got. Indeed the whole notion of cisgender only entrenches gender, patriarchy and male violence.

YY. Ace post, Leyat.

Snappity, you’re obviously aren’t going to address my earlier point. Can I try another one? If you think that everyone should accept that TWAW before any further discussion takes place, what do you think the discussion that followed would be about?

Exactly what gender critical feminists claim it should be about - how to keep women, including trans women, safe from men.

The petition to parliament is still running.

When it reached 10 000 the government responded:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3269463-Government-response-to-the-petition

It is currently at 12 543

At 100,000 signatures, this petition will be considered for debate in Parliament

"Consult with women on proposals to enshrine 'gender identity' in law
The government proposes to amend the law to allow people to self-identify as men or women, and to stop allowing organisations in sensitive situations to exclude people of the opposite birth sex. We call for women to be consulted on how to protect women and girls' rights, safety, privacy and dignity.

More details
We call for:

• Respectful and evidence-based discussion about the impact of proposed changes and for women's voices to be heard.

• The government to consult with women’s organisations on how self-declaration would impact on women-only services and spaces, data-gathering, and monitoring of sex-based discrimination.

• The principle of single-sex spaces to be upheld – and where necessary extended."

link:
petition.parliament.uk/petitions/214118

I said they because I think more than one person is posting from your account, and therefore they is the correct pronoun to use as it is plural.

However, in the interests of debate I shall rephrase:

Snappity, what definition of transwomen are you using?

I'm a woman, I don't have to declare I'm a woman and always have been. Why do transwomen, whether they believe it's from birth or from 2 weeks ago, if they are indeed women? Why does their history matter?

It doesn't which is why people want the requirement removed.

I find the humour very helpful, Bertrand. Combatting the war on women is hard bloody work. I can do with all the light relief I can get. Gives me renewed porpoise.