FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

I understand your point that this is a hostile place to be with our views and that there is an often coordinated push to silence us on some threads (is almost as if people are talking about ya somewhere else)

Bespin this is quite an extraordinary claim and allegation.

You have boasted before of the pressure you have put on organisations, and the policy changes you have forced upon them by use of the legal process behind the scenes. Have you done this to mumsnet?

Yes, their partner is the one that boasted about forcing MN into having new rules, hence this thread when it hasn't forced women to submit.

Tells I didn’t know that. Who is their partner? (J4nice? Will I find the thread in question if I AS?)

Snappity, can I ask a hypothetical question? A person with the outward physical appearance of a man decides from now on to be a woman. There are no physical changes. If that person died and was autopsied the body would be unquestionably male. There is absolutely nothing except a declaration to distinguish that person from any other male person. On what grounds do you think that person has the right to insist that everyone else agree with the declaration?

according to that wikipedia link

[personal identity] is preserved and encouraged through privacy, personality rights and the right to self-expression

I do not believe that any thing posted here threatens you or your partners rights or opportunities to any of these things.

how does FWR threaten your partner's privacy?
how does FWR threaten your partner's right to behave as they chose (which I guess is 'personality expression)?
how does FWR threaten your partner's ability to dress and present themselves as they chose?

gender critical feminists are all for men rejecting absolute masculinity in terms of behaviour and dress. most people here think that's a good thing.

we just know that humans can't change sex

Bespin this is quite an extraordinary claim and allegation.

Not when posters like LangCleg even object to me quoting what she says.

On what grounds do you think that person has the right to insist that everyone else agree with the declaration?

So do you disagree with the principle of the human right to identity or do you just not believe that trans people should have that human right?

Snappity in that case was Rachel Dolezal denied her rights when others refused to agree that she was black?

Snappily why do you persist in naming a poster who has repeatedly asked you not to? That seems rather strange, given that you ask others to use specific pronouns. It seems hypocritical to me. In that everyone else must use the specific pronouns you want them to but yet when someone else asks you they do something, you refuse to do so

Snappitty talks about feeling they're being silenced on MN.

I'm a natural born female.

I'm being silenced everywhere else.

Snappitty.....do you give the teensiest bit of a fuck about me? I suspect not, based on your words. So take your bleating and your whining and your appropriation of my rights and shove them where the sun don't shine.

Respect is reciprocal. We're not obliged to give you any damn thing.

Welcome to Groundhog Day, sisters. I'm just going to see if I can play the piano.....

"On what grounds do you think that person has the right to insist that everyone else agree with the declaration?

So do you disagree with the principle of the human right to identity or do you just not believe that trans people should have that human right?"
Could you answer my question rather than just ask another one?

is almost as if people are talking about ya somewhere else

I think there's some confusion here, it's the TRAs that round up the troops on twitter on a regular basis.

Snappily why do you persist in naming a poster who has repeatedly asked you not to?

Which proves what Bespin said about the attempt to silence debate because it seems not only can we not quote the opposing arguments, we can't even attribute them.

I’m not on any GC Facebook groups because I’m not GC. and yet, Snappity, you still have a problem with my posts. Why is that?

I don't think anything in that link suggests that you have the right to force others to unquestioningly accept your personal identity. In fact it emphasises that people are entitled to freedom of opinion. Besides, what about my right to personally identify as a GC feminist?

Snappity. Yet again you are refusing to answer my question and twisting what has been said. Please do not twist my words as I view that as the same as misgendering. Which you do not wish people to do.

I don't want to silence debate. I am desperate for debate.

We are Daleks now according to Avery on Twitter. Where's that portal again?

Go to any online TER stronghold (Mumsnet, Facebook groups, Twitter cliques) and you’ll find endless talk of wanting to exterminate us.*

should also point out that I tend to use preferred pronouns and I don't have much truck with the argument that using them is harmful to women's mental health.

Probably best not to speak for those women on that, Peak, given that you don't understand how this can be.

Wanting to exterminate transpeople?! Clearly never actually seen what has been being said...

It’s like Chinese whispers; GC> transphobic> calling for the erasure of trans people> endless talk of extermination!

This is why I come on here, because of tweets like Avery's recent

Just to reiterate something I said in another tweet: TERs absolutely attack and assault trans women. They confront trans women at meetings and protests and hit them until they hit back, at which point they mark the encounter down as “trans activist hits feminist” and leave.*

When asked for evidence, they have none. I come here for reasoned debate.

So snappity are you actualky going to answer any of the questions?

What wpuld you tell the police if your trans partner or trans kid went missing ?

Would you have the world looking for a girl? Or tell the police they are actually a boy?

Avery is clearly not right.

Would it make people happy if we said "oh go on then, we'll say transwomen are women. We don't believe this, as all people with a basic understanding of biology don't, but if it makes people feel better we'll say we believe it"