FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

*Bespin, you said, "I understand your point that this is a hostile place to be with our views and that there is an often coordinated push to silence us on some threads (is almost as if people are talking about ya somewhere else)"

I responded that this is quite an extraordinary claim and allegation.

& you have now said, Not when posters like LangCleg even object to me quoting what she says

Bespin Either you have failed to understand LangCleg's position or you are deliberately misrepresenting it.

Both are cause for concern.

Among other things, gender critical feminists are trying to deny trans women their right to personal identity ie as women

That's a fundamental human right

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_personal_identity

It is also covered by Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

Did you even click on that links which talks about how women are not allowed to wear certain clothes in France. The right to express their identity in the way they presented doesn't seem to be covered or at least is a point of contention.

If you carried what you suggest to its extreme, it would allow grown men to identify as 6 year old girls as part of their identity and human rights.

And of course, it fails to address the contradiction of why lesbians aren't allowed to self identity on sex perference alone as part of their identity.

Nor why women are not allowed to self identity on biological grounds alone either.

The point is that exceptions are part of the rule, and come down to safeguarding frameworks which you seem to suggest from this post, should just be ripped up.

The concept that identity trumps all is exceptionally simply, naive and actually just false.

Why are you peddling falsehoods?

PP asking you not to engage with them doesn't silence debate, they can't literally make their posts invisible -- you just need to reply in general, not directly to them.

Refusing to do what they are asking however, does show a distinct lack of respect for people's boundaries. You might want to think how that comes across when the while conversation is about people not respecting women's boundaries.

I'd suggest reading your own links; wiki lists sex as an example of a static attribute - "The static aspects of identity concern attributes that make one visible to the outside world, for example, physical features, sex, name, genetics, and nationality"

Bespin this is quite an extraordinary claim and allegation.

TBH i find all this side of it quite amusing, lol the game of all this that people are playing and planning. I would be stupid not to think that people dont talk about posters on here on the other place. but no one is going to brake the fight club code and confirm that, im sure its all civilized debate over there and everything. Like i said if i spent time worrying about it all then i would not come on here.

If people can not have a bit of fun while doing all this then it will get to them. Some of this as become so life and death to people on both sides and i often think we all need to just step back for a minute. I often come off here and walk outside and realise most people have no idea what is going on and dont really care. Its easy to loose sight on here and time and i hope people are able to not let this take over there lives

Snappity- is there any chance you could address my point, please?

TBH i find all this side of it quite amusing, lol the game of all this that people are playing and planning

Concerns about women's rights, safeguarding, free speech and democratic process?

Your posts today Bespin are making clear a great deal.

Snappity- is there any chance you could address my point, please?

I did. I narrowed your argument to one of two positions and am waiting for you to clarify which applies

You haven’t answered me yet either Snappity. And I’ve asked a few times.

Some of this as become so life and death to people on both sides and i often think we all need to just step back for a minute. I often come off here and walk outside and realise most people have no idea what is going on and dont really care.

Apathy isn't something we should aspire to and encourage.

In terms of life and death, I'd like more of a conversation on that tbh. There's a lot of crap and not enough proper' conversation about safeguarding frameworks.

Including the one about suicide being a social contagion and how it's being deliberately used as a weapon to manipulate and how this might be harmful to the trans community itself by being pushed so hard by its members without proper understanding of what effect promoting it has nor understanding underlying vulnerability which might have nothing whatsoever to do with identity.

Snappity-your response bore absolutely no relation to my question.

Including the one about suicide being a social contagion and how it's being deliberately used as a weapon to manipulate and how this might be harmful to the trans community itself by being pushed so hard by its members without proper understanding of what effect promoting it has nor understanding underlying vulnerability which might have nothing whatsoever to do with identity.

Yes. It's worth being mindful of the fact that organisations like the Samaritans have guidelines on how to talk about suicide in a responsible way as they are aware of the contagion effect.

She's ignoring us on purpose duck

Because there's no answer to the question that wouldn't mean.misgendering her own.kid or partner

I mean Giles.

I’m not GC.

I use appropriate pronouns.

Have no issue with saying that a trans woman who has acquired their new gender through GRC process is legally a woman.

Don’t see an issue with broadly where the exemptions are as currently permitted in law.

Don’t have a problem sharing bathroom space.

And it’s srill not enough for Snappity and they’re still twisting my posts. And pushing for more and more.

Why?

oh come on R0wantrees stop trying to paint posters as a certain type of person. i could tell you i have Concerns about women's rights, safeguarding, free speech and democratic process. That i care passionately about all these things but i just dont hold the same view point as you, it does not make me not concerned not holding the same view as you.

it is this type of thing that puts people off if you need to highlight the poster and not the post on something.

have a lovely day all its sunny and too nice to be on here.

None of the posters advocating TRA ideology have managed to put forth a well-reasoned post, let alone an argument.

OP, if you want people to take your argument seriously, you have to provide a sensible way of doing so.

When people talk about this being an issue of life or death, what we are really talking about in the UK is

• the negative impact that ignoring sex has on particularly women's health and trans people's health
• invoking the suicide thing against the Samaritans guidelines, which does stand up to proper scrutiny anyway and ignores other important factors which might be contributing at the expense of trans people's health
• ignoring how controlling language and statistics makes it harder to identify and prevent male violence against women (violence against trans people is covered under hate crime regardless).
• the effect of not understanding the principles and foundations of safeguarding, particularly of children, which through undermining with inflexible dogma ignoring potential loopholes, places the most vulnerable at risk - particularly children who might be thinking they are trans.

When you cut the crap, this 'life and death' thing directly has the effect of hurting women or is self inflicted on the trans community by the adherence to strict ideology by not allowing proper debate around the subject.

Yes I'd very much like to talk about the 'life and death' stuff but not in a them versus us way.

Logic vs feelings TerfsUp.

Factual questions vs vague "be nice" replies.

Real life vs "fun and games".

But it is indeed sunny outside, that much we can agree on Bespin.

Morning all. Do we have Snappity, j4nice or someone else this morning?

OP, I only read the first 100 messages. Completely agree with you, that is all.

Do say why.

I'd read on a bit more before stating you completely agree with the OP. Unless you also agree that men can give birth?

oh come on R0wantrees stop trying to paint posters as a certain type of person. i could tell you i have Concerns about women's rights, safeguarding, free speech and democratic process. That i care passionately about all these things but i just dont hold the same view point as you, it does not make me not concerned not holding the same view as you.

it is this type of thing that puts people off if you need to highlight the poster and not the post on something.

You chose to talk about "posters like Lang Cleg"

I am simply responding to your posts Bespin, I read what people write & think about it before responding.

Logic vs feelings.

You're right, Mogleflop. That's exactly what it is.