FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

"Today 19:43 garam

The original post foreshadowing the whole thread, and lack of self awareness from the posters is ka-boom mind-blowing off the scale!!

so far, 19 pages of utter harassment and whataboutery."

This post does no reflect the thread in the slightest

Bertrand see my post above. It sort of does, but not from the people garam is accusing by their implication! A complete reverse!

The darvoiest darvo to ever darvo...

The darvoiest darvo to ever darvo...

Beyond I think you meant to say 'ka-boom' in that sentence?

This whole damn thread is bizarre.
The point about the lesbian refuge worker..can I just say-there is no such thing as less of a woman. It's not a sliding scale. It's like being pregnant: You either are or you are not.
The more of this mindfuck I read, the more worried I am about the mental health of ANYONE who believes in such fairytales as "men giving birth".
Very very strange times we live in.

The sound of cognitive dissonance makes you go cross eyed.

The use of the pronoun "They "seems to be appropriate in respect of multiple posters using the same account here.

:)

Well I finally caught up on this thread & having read the whole thing I would agree that your posting is quite erratic to say the least snappity & having some time away from MN/being online is likely tobe beneficial.
I hope you have some IRL support & that your partner does not prevent you from accessing that support. Go well.

Snappity

You are perfectly entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs.

As am I. I am also perfectly entitled to discuss my thoughts and beliefs on this forum.

When I was young my parents instilled in me that my voice is important and should be heard, I have spent most of my adult life convincing other women that theirs is too and it frustrates and upsets me on a daily basis that most women don’t think their voice is important and should be heard, so
I say to you -

Take your requests to be ‘nice’ and ‘think of others’ and shove them up your arse.

Women’s voices are always fucking pushed down and I’m done with it, let a woman speak .

self care in all this is an important thing and stepping away is importent so I hope snappy you find a balance in all this. I understand your point that this is a hostile place to be with our views and that there is an often coordinated push to silence us on some threads (is almost as if people are talking about ya somewhere else 😜)
but there are some really well considered posts that address the issues too, people talked on another thread about fixed views and no debate can happen if everyone as a fixed view that is totally inflexible. I know there are lines in the sand and sometimes we have to be prepared to step over them while still knowing there there.
I think the new rules have allowed at least some of these more flexible views to at lead be heard though the other day a GC feminist was shouted down a little for fearing to look for another path even though they held the same view. I feel done people are so invested in this now that any deviation from there goal is hard to see, and they react aggressively.

The forum as improved a little but the rules where never going to change it as people don't like rules and will always find a way round them. the people who just thought they didn't apply to them have gone but at the end of the day the view of this forum is not going to change no matter what we post or how good our arguments are. but I'm not here to do that I'm here to provide balance so that this is not just a echo chamber which it can be on occasion and that is when the worst posts occur when people are egged on to say the worst thing.

I never believe that people on here are bad people in real life but that the Internet place a barrier between us which allows us to loose site if each others humanity. but thst how the Internet is these days in general.

I now expect someone to of course shout me down as is there right to but there is little I can do about that there view is equal to mine on here, and I knowingly come here so know what to expect when I do. if mums net does not want this then it can close the forum if it wants this is not a public space but there's but it would only happen and is happening in other places that are maybe more of an echo chamber as no balance is provided.

Snap why don’t you just write a script for us and we can either stick to it or ignore it, as we see fit?

There is already a whole MN topic area for flouncing, semi-flouncing, questioning flouncers and ‘being on here less’.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/flouncers_corner

Snappity I am sorry that your partner is upset about this. Personally, I have no desire to upset trans people at all and I strongly believe in their rights to legal recognition and dignified treatment as a group of people. But what I don't agree with is saying that they literally are female and that there is no meaningful biological difference between a woman born with breasts, uterus and a vagina and a trans woman who retains a penis and testicles. Of course there is.

I do find that sometimes your posts just try to wind people up by saying stuff that is patently false. There are trans people on here with whom it is possible to have a sensible debate because they do acknowledge that there is a biological difference, even if they are not in full agreement on the GC position. You simply refuse to accept that it exists and it means debate becomes very difficult.

I wonder if your experience of growing up intersex has clouded this. Intersex is obviously extremely different to transgender but I would imagine that the struggles that an intersex person has faced would make them very sympathetic to a trans person. The point is that trans people are not intersex- they are on the binary. They were born either male or female as were 99.9% of the world's population.

I should also point out that I tend to use preferred pronouns and I don't have much truck with the argument that using them is harmful to women's mental health. However, something like sports forces me to recognise reality which is that male and female biology is very different. Serena Williams would never have gotten within sniffing distance of Wimbledon unless we segregated male and female bodies. Literally every single player would have been male-born. Throughout history.

Whether someone feels male or female is a different thing to the reality of their body. I don't see the issue with respecting gender identity in some circumstances, while retaining protections and segregation based on sex.

Plus you have STILL not answered the question of what is the difference between a male body with a male mind and a male body with a female mind where the woman sharing the spaces with them has no idea of the person's identity? I suspect that it's because you know full well that you are in the wrong on this one and you have to skirt around the issue.

Bespin, FFS, the way you write makes it sound like people here are advocating mass murder.

I'd like lurkers to make their own minds up whether the following notions are aggressive, offensive or radical:

• women exist, they're biologically different from men
• as such there are things intended to protect or offer equality to them that should only be open to them
• men who identify as women have different life experiences and medical needs
• children shouldn't be medically experimented on
• autistic children in particular shouldn't be exposed to gender lies like "if you like makeup you're a girl inside, if you like football you're a boy"
• transactivists shouldn't lie about suicide rates or ignore the social contagion they're known to cause
• some people are born intersex, they seem be asking to be left out of these discussions
• everyone has human rights, and everyone should treat everyone else with kindness and respect (including not taking up resources intended to offer equality or protection to another group)

Mogleflop you missed the bit where I said people on here are not bad people. of course I don't think that about you. you have a valid point of view society on the whole in the past as shared that view at this moment in time it again appears not to but if you are right and actually it does but just dies not have its view represented then you can change that over all societal view. we are after all a minority and are dependent on the majority granting us our rights.

I welcome views such as yours and Snappity's on FWR, Bespin.

Without them, there would be far less opportunity to continue the discussion in such a public domain. Even yesterday's latest demand to stop using the pronoun 'they' highlights and affirms the GC case.

But it's not about me Bespin.

It's the way you constantly portray these boards as a hotbed of toxic activity, where posters "lose our humanity".

Actually, the list I've made above is a pretty succinct summary of the views expressed here. You're calling them backwards. I'll leave it to others to judge.

Out of interest - what rights do you lose under the list above?

Bespin

Which of Mogleflop's points do you think society has rejected?

we are after all a minority and are dependent on the majority granting us our rights.

what rights do you not already have?

under brilliant post! I'm fired up now

what rights do you not already have?

Among other things, gender critical feminists are trying to deny trans women their right to personal identity ie as women

That's a fundamental human right

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right_to_personal_identity

It is also covered by Article 8 of the European Convention on Human Rights

Among other things, gender critical feminists are trying to deny trans women their right to personal identity ie as women

I wasn't asking you - I cannot believe a word you say.

However you have the right to identify as you wish. You don't have the right to force anyone to believe it.

If you already have that right, what rights do you NOT already have?

Oh Snappity. That’s over reaching.

A transperson with a GRC is legally their acquired sex.

Personal identity means you can chose to express that personal identity in any way you choose within the law.

That’s what stops the naked rambler - there are a,ways proportionate limits under law.

You have boasted before of the pressure you have put on organisations, and the policy changes you have forced upon them by use of the legal process behind the scenes. Have you done this to mumsnet?

Maybe we are going to have to have women and cis women eh Bespin? As Transactivists seem so determined to take the word women away from actual biological women and leave it with no meaningful definition.

If anyone can identify as a woman then no-one is a woman. The word becomes completely meaningless. Is that what you want?