FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

dianebrewster Quite.

"Goady" isn't an FWR thing, it's a Mumsnet in general thing. It's a common tactic for trolls (not calling you one here, I'm just explaining!) to try to goad posters into responding in a way that reflects negatively on them.

Perhaps if you spent a little more time 'chilling' on the rest of the site, and less getting wound up here - because we will simply never (unless there is some massive scientific breakthrough) agree a man is a woman - you might have known that?

The only males who give birth, AFAIK, are seahorses. I like seahorses.

Me. Snappity has peaked me today. Snapitty and dadjoke the other night. I'm freeeeeeeeeeeeee

50 years ago the gender critical position made sense but it hasn't kept up with the times because sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth. We need a new framework to deal with that and it means accepting that sex is neither binary nor immutable. Those are such alien concepts to gender critical feminists that when someone like me argues on the basis of the new reality that it seems bizarre to them

It simply isn't possible that anyone is this obtuse Snappity. You are insisting on an alternate reality and demanding that others go along with it.

Based on your dogged persistence in repeating your warped viewpoint and refusal to actually engage in reality, I do assume you are here to goad and cause offence.

As bizarre as the suggestion that because women want space away from males, this means they need protection/space away from from masculine women and butch lesbians.

Wanted to repost this to stress the point. I find it totally outrageous. I am perfectly comfortable with the butchest of lesbians because they're women. Men, regardless of the femininity they may perform, are male. Men, as a class, represent a risk to me and every other woman. Lesbians and "masculine" women do not No one is scared of the lesbian in the dark alley, FFS.

Its just fucking ridiculous. Sorry but it is.

Yes it is. And so homophobic too. I remember fondly the lesbians who did security at a feminist meeting I attended in London two years ago. Tall, graceful, like Renaissance archangels - they were superb in their gender non conformity. And I felt safer for their presence.

Thing is, women don't go round making other women intimidated or frightened. It's men who do that. And nasty men at that.

No, seahorses do NOT give birth. The female lays the eggs and the male carries them in his pouch to protect them. Male = protector in the seahorse world just as it always has throughout history and nature.

As was mentioned the other day, I'd feel safer in a dark alley with another GNC woman than I would on my own!

Ohhh - regarding Seahorses - “When seahorses mate, the female inserts her ovipositor into the male's brood pouch (an external structure that grows on the body of the male) and deposits her unfertilized eggs into the pouch. The male then releases sperm into the pouch to fertilize the eggs”

I did not know this! And I’ve spent an hour in an aquarium fascinated watching them.

And having been pregnant and given birth twice, I think it’s a very sensible system. But humans don’t work like that unfortunately.

snappity

If you think it's only gender critical , feminists, try posting this in chat, or AIBU. That's a really good temperature check.

50 years ago the gender critical position made sense but it hasn't kept up with the times because sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth. We need a new framework to deal with that and it means accepting that sex is neither binary nor immutable. Those are such alien concepts to gender critical feminists that when someone like me argues on the basis of the new reality that it seems bizarre to them.

I'm not sure if you genuinely think this.

But you are talking about men with gender dysphoria. Not some new scientific breakthrough.

Men with gender dysphoria is recognised everywhere. It's not difficult to understand.

It's not some new way of looking at humans.

To call a male 'she' is to state an untruth. Using 'they' is the way around that. I will not lie.

I do the same.

Or a fake vagina - after all they need regiular dilation to prevent it closing up like a healing scar

Ah ‘rapey riley’ hopefully someone will link to Magdalen Berns in a bit.

Magdalen Berns responds to Riley J Dennis' youtube video, 'Your Dating Preferences are Discriminatory'

Men don’t give birth.

A male body, even with a uterus transplanted in and a cervix, does not have the correct skeletal and muscular structure to accommodate a growing baby.

As many women find out, birth is the incredibly short and dangerous bit at the end. It’s the 10 months of total bodily transformation that changes you forever.

Shorter TRA: If you really cared about me you would give me the unquestioning obedience I deserve.

Thanks R0wantrees

Agree with previous posters. Snappity is more than one person. It's a group of TRAs alternating. Here they are trying to goad in order to get posters banned. Don't fall for it folks and don't waste sympathy either.

Over and Out.

The original post foreshadowing the whole thread, and lack of self awareness from the posters is ka-boom mind-blowing off the scale!!

so far, 19 pages of utter harassment and whataboutery.

Agreed. It’s completely obvious that there are at least two personalities posting as the op, one seems very very vulnerable. It’s really quite disturbing.

I agree. Catching up on this thread has been an increasingly disturbing experience.

Snappity. Especially vulnerable Snappity if there are actually two or more of you posting. You have been on here all day. Please look after yourself and step away for a time. Even if it's just a few days. Get some perspective, do something else and take care of yourself. Enjoy the sun. Be with people you care about.

Please consider seeking help if you are as vulnerable as you often sound. I sincerely wish you the best.

50 years ago the gender critical position made sense but it hasn't kept up with the times because sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth. We need a new framework to deal with that and it means accepting that sex is neither binary nor immutable. Those are such alien concepts to gender critical feminists that when someone like me argues on the basis of the new reality that it seems bizarre to them.

You want HCP to lie and disregard all their training and fail patients, those they are teaching and the wider public for an ideology?

Gah why am I getting drawn into this.

I remember during the run up to Brexit and the US 2016 election posters admitted there were accounts with more than one person posting. This appears to be the case with a number of posters on FWR.

TBH it doesn't really matter if there are TRA accounts with multiple posters. The objective, material, measurable truth is on our side. Every discussion and interaction gives us another opportunity to demonstrate this. Often we don't even need to try. They demonstrate it themselves.

But I am concerned about properly vulnerable posters being swept up in this. Particularly if their vulnerability is camouflaged by other posters on the same account.

Yep, I agree with you garam.

The OP 'foreshadowing' that the themes are too heavily towards trans - in a thread by the OP that is about trans issues, adding to the trans thread theme. Whooo! Clever foreshadowing there. (I predict that the thread I start about M & S crap clothes will mainly be about M & S crap clothes - whooo!)

And yes, I agree re. your point about the lack of self-awareness:- from the OP it really is mind-blowing, what with them announcing their withdrawing because they feel unwelcome and then coming back consistently over the day - mind-blowing off the scale. (Particularly as they've had so many posters recognise today that the OP may be having problems, and signposting them to support, both here and elsewhere. Damn females, being stereotypically caring and nurturing!) The OP seems to have no self-awareness of their impact on others, and the bizarreness of their posts.

And yes, I agree, the utter harrassment of females who return again and again to calmly set out their discussion with an evidence-base, countering the legal and bioloical claims of the OP which, as a result, are each time 'blown out of the water' with rational, legal, scientific evidence.

And yes, the 'whataboutery' of the OP and others repeatedly returning to tell females that they're wrong because of 'wrong law'/'poor science'/blog posts/just 'cos they're wrong because transwomen are women full stop.

Oh, and you didn't mention it, but yeah, females are mean. If only they could just be nice and accept male-bodied people as females, everything would be OK.

I agree entirely with your post decrying harassment, lack of self awareness and whataboutery.

I just suspect we may disagree who it's actually coming from.

Ka...boom.