FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

Look, we get that that is what you believe... however it will remain a belief until it can be evidenced...

Saying it over and over doesn’t make it true, it just makes you look like a fundamentalist...

On all these threads not one scrap of evidence TBH... just a load of stuff that doesn’t say what you think it says or is a op ed saying what you want it to say based on science that doesn’t say what the writer thinks it says...

Snappity you started this thread at 6.45 this morning. Over ten hours later you are still going at it. For your own health of mind ,it might be a good idea to step away from the internet for a bit. Wish you well.

We need a new framework to deal with that and it means accepting that sex is neither binary nor immutable. Those are such alien concepts to gender critical feminists that when someone like me argues on the basis of the new reality that it seems bizarre to them.

We need nothing of the sort. Sex is binary.

And it’s not bizarre, just not reality, new or otherwise.

Please don't anyone allow yourselves to be goaded by this transparently goady poster who is openly trying to get everyone banned and to control everything said on this forum.

I have found that a lot of gender critical feminists who disagree with the few trans-positive voices on FWR reach for the word "goady".

We need a new framework to deal with that and it means accepting that sex is neither binary nor immutable.

Why would we accept an untruth? The truth is good enough for me.

Snappity-2, why don't you take a break from the forum and go look after Snappity-1?

"sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth"

Nope.
I... just... ...nope.

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

You've read the trans widows thread? Right.

This didn't work in my family.

So please don't assume that this is some sort of magic bullet to happiness.

Well, what would you call it if GC feminists came and posted their ideology on sites populated by a majority of transgender activists who were discussing trans rights?

You’d think it was goady wouldn’t you?

"sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth"

I just said pretty much this as a parody on a different thread

Ok snappity, don't take my not replying to your argument as admission that it's right, I'm taking my own advice and that of others and recognising that it's not right to engage with you, the arguments being put forward are becoming increasingly strange and it's clear something's not right here.

I genuinely wish you well and hope you can reach out to get some help.

And don’t try and say ‘that’s different they are not trans and transwomen are women’ because according to transgender ideology (and that stonewall definition you ran away from) all GC feminists are as trans as anyone on those forums...

Men are not giving birth. biological females are giving birth, as they have done for all of mammalian history. The only difference is that some of these biological females are now identifying as men, whatever that means.

sex is now diverse eg with men giving birth

Except these 'men' are female, just like everyone who has ever given birth.

Do you honestly believe the shite you post? Seriously?

I agree that it seems there are at least 2 people posting on this account as from what I have seen the poster swings from almost rational to utterly ridiculous crap like 'men give birth'

I am not even arsed about getting banned for this, as I do think the poster is purposely saying random shite to report the replies. I have no strikes so far as I have pretty much stayed out of the trans conversations, but my god, this is worth getting a strike for.

Hopefully if posts are reported, HQ will actually read the full thread before taking any action, anyway. And they will see what we all see too.

I didn't pick it up on the thread in question but someone claimed that you have to know "natal" sex to monitor kidney function accurately. That is totally wrong. When someone transitions and takes hormones the baseline moves from male to female (or vice versa) over the course of about 5 years. Kidneys change sex.

On hormones trans women develop breasts and trans men develop facial hair, male patten baldness and their voice breaks. All changes in attributes of sex.

Biological sex isn't binary. It is a categorisation based on several attributes of sex and consequently biological sex can and does change. That's the science.

No.
Strip away everything and go back to the bare bones, as it were, and a scientist, even a lay person would be able to tell purely by looking at a skeleton whether that skeleton is male or female. That's even before doing dna tests.

Now That's science.

The GC position makes as much sense now as it every has done. men are men, women are women. Trans people deserve the same human rights as everyone else, but female people deserve their rights too, and males simply cannot be included in female rights else female rights are fucking pointless.

I didn't pick it up on the thread in question but someone claimed that you have to know "natal" sex to monitor kidney function accurately. That is totally wrong. When someone transitions and takes hormones the baseline moves from male to female (or vice versa) over the course of about 5 years. Kidneys change sex.

On hormones trans women develop breasts and trans men develop facial hair, male patten baldness and their voice breaks. All changes in attributes of sex.

Biological sex isn't binary. It is a categorisation based on several attributes of sex and consequently biological sex can and does change. That's the science.

No.
Strip away everything and go back to the bare bones, as it were, and a scientist, even a lay person, would be able to tell, purely by looking at a skeleton and the shape of the skull, the teeth, the length and breadth of certain bones, whether that skeleton is male or female. That's even before doing dna tests.

Now that's science.

Suppose a refuge only supported lesbians and wanted to recruit a rape counsellor. As a genuine occupational requirement they might say that the appointee had to be a lesbian
You what? Why would a lesbian rape victim require a lesbian counsellor? The rape would be by a male on a female, same as all other rapes.
The reason females object to TW being rape counsellors is because of the likelihood of that person being in possession of a penis, therefore potentially triggering a traumatised victim.
It is totally ridiculous to equate that situation to a lesbian being supported by a heterosexual woman.
Bizarre

It is totally ridiculous to equate that situation to a lesbian being supported by a heterosexual woman.

As bizarre as the suggestion that because women want space away from males, this means they need protection/space away from from masculine women and butch lesbians
Its just fucking ridiculous. Sorry but it is.

My family are hostages to the ideology. My Mum swallows it whole. My Dad... Well the man I knew before isn't the same. It was like a light went out. He very rarely spoke of it. The few times he did, made me wonder whether he just stayed silent to keep the peace.

My mum spent so much time justifying behaviour that she never would have in any other circumstances. She goes round and round in circles saying things which are just totally contradictory, because she's desparate. The suicide thing is particularly nasty.

It's sad to watch.

I really don't understand why people are still attempting to engage with this poster in good faith. Because the converse most certainly is not the case and never has been.

Time to deploy the bees, imo.

🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝🐝

What I find interesting.

No denial of the links to a certain very angry person who wants to shut down MN.

No apology to the observations of upsetting Golden Wonderwall.

And not one iota of the concern that has been expressed by genuinely concerned MN users.

Very very odd.

This poster has boasted in the past about the legal action they have taken against organisations, and/or threats of same that have forced change in procedures and policies before court.

I suspect their modus operandi has not changed.

Men dont give birth - only the female sex can. Why does snappity keep getting biological sex and gender identity muddled up i wonder. Identity is in your head - cannot and does not change biological reality . If a man can give birth in the way you are framing it - it means man or woman are only interchangeable words and nothing else..

I really don't understand why people are still attempting to engage with this poster in good faith. Because the converse most certainly is not the case and never has been.

I am bored and in a terrible mood to start with, and the posters random bollocks is annoying me more than it usually would so yeah..

I know they will just spout more 'the penis is female! lesbians are transphobic to refuse to suck it' nonsense, but let them go at it tbh. I doubt many on here have taken the poster in good faith for a while now.

I would be interested to know how many lurkers the Snappity family have peaked today. My guess is quite a few.