FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

Snappity not all transwomen believe they are women, many acknowledge that they are not actual women. Maybe you should stop misgendering them?

Also you cannot compel people to believe what you think they should. People are allowed to disagree and criticise belief systems even those upheld by law. We live in a democracy.

Yes its coming across now that you are feeling pressured to continue to argue a point which you have no hope of suceeding but are pushing on anyway....

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

Manipulative response to post expressing concern.

This is symptomatic of the whole debate here & elsewhere. I've had enough manipulative bullying in my life to have a visceral reaction to this, and I too am done engaging with this poster.

Does your partner actually read your posts snappity, or just disagree with the idea of you being on mn in general?

Oh another thing, when you say you are both not well at the moment; I just want to recommend the general health boards, the disability boards and the mental health boards (obviously I don't know what the issue is so I'm just going with all three). They have all helped me through many a crisis. Afaik you only post here, so I thought it might be beneficial to have a look at the support areas if you are in a place where you need support

For the umpteenth time a GRC is NOT required to be protected by 'gender reassignment'

Yes, garam, that’s what the passage you quoted was saying... 🙄

Snappity I have no problem using the pronouns of someone's preferred gender and I'm quite happy to say that transwomen with a GRC are legally women.

Yet you're still not happy with my posts. Why is that? I do what you've said is sufficient.

To me that reads as an admission that you knowingly avoid using female pronouns for trans women and substitute the pronouns for non-binary people. That is misgendering and transphobia.

So what would be a polite way to refer to a TW without denying biology?

Well of riley rapey Dennis is your argument then I'm.afraid you have well and truly lost the plot.

Biology is fact not bigotry.

And you cant force people to believe lies just to protect a grown man feelings.

When someone dies and their bodies are dug up years later all evidence will poibt to their biological sense. Their ge see off tity will remain unknown.

Of your child ever went missing . What descriptions would you give the police . Would you have the world looking for a little girl and risk him never being found?

Their biological sex

Their gender identity will remain unknown.

Sorry fat thumbs

Re ‘misgendering’... people in here using sex based descriptions are offering no comment on any person’s gender identity. They are using words which refer to sex. You can’t actually coherently call this ‘misgendering’ because it is nothing to do with gender. What you are actually asking for is that the whole entire world erase any trace of the concept of sex and replace it entirely with gender... you think nobody is allowed to have any opinion or objection to that or it is transphobic. Well it’s not just about trans people, it’s about all people and TBH if you were to achieve that all you would do is successfully make it impossible for any transperson to claim discrimination on the basis of being trans...

But yeah, I’m gonna try and stay away from this and all the rest of the people who seem to think it is absolutely desirable to impose an ideology on everyone in the world...

@MNHQ why hasn't Snappity been banned? They've been deleted far more than 3 times for breaking talk guidelines and persistently post truly abhorrent things which are hugely upsetting to the women who use this board. It really isn't acceptable.

So what would be a polite way to refer to a TW without denying biology?

That's the whole point isn't it. They actually want you to deny biology and accept that someone can change sex, when we all know (even the OP themself if they are honest) that it's quite impossible to do so.

Gender change - yes, go for it and enjoy.
Sex change - not on.

This is Sussex's University advice on pronoun use, they say that 'gender-neutral' is what to use when a person has not stated their pronouns. So when talking about non-specific groupings 'they' is actually being put forward as a preferred term. So now I'm really confused as to how using 'they' is not acceptable on MN?

Use of gender-neutral language

In situations where introductions are not appropriate or where an individual has not directly stated their pronouns, gender-neutral language should be used to refer to them, and no assumptions should be made based on presentation or appearance.

www.sussexstudent.com/democracy/policies/gender-inclusive-language/

Does anyone else see someone stood behind Snappity shouting 'make them say transwomen are women, make them say she'.

It is as heartbreaking as reading the trans widows thread.

You're offering Riley J Dennis as a source of advice, Snappity? Seriously? I did watch the video. Glad it was short. Word salad including fake suicide statistics while Riley tries (and fails) to redefine violence to mean not violence.

This is the same Riley J Dennis of , in which Riley seeks to obliterate sexual orientation by talking very, very fast.

I am deeply uncomfortable about asking for anyone to be banned but I do think saying transwomen are infertile women is not in the spirit of the site and causes enough distress that posters who state that should be informed MN is maybe not the place for them.

Well yes, a poster who says the EHR commission is ‘wrong’ about the law but links to Riley?

Mad...

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

Orwell's 1984 isn't an instruction manual, Snappity.

why hasn't Snappity been banned?
Is it a case of better inside the tent ping out, than outside the tent ping in.

Yes flippin.

And its extremely uncomfortable and concerning to see.

Well i think it's shown just what an own goal all this is.
They wanted everything gender neutral and now everyone's referred to nuetrally and there's no validation of their identity they have gone back to it all being acts of violence.

Of course when someone dies of a ruptured ectopic.....

Me, flipping

I think that the time has come to stop someone who constantly tries to erode our boundaries. It is very distressing all round.
Mumsnet was warned that this is what would happen.
As for pronouns, who can keep up with people's requirements here? We would all be banned all the time.
Snappity, I think you would be happier elsewhere. Go well.

@MNHQ why hasn't Snappity been banned? They've been deleted far more than 3 times for breaking talk guidelines and persistently post truly abhorrent things which are hugely upsetting to the women who use this board. It really isn't acceptable.

Because their partner is the one whose legal team imposed the new rules, and who has already told us they want to take Mumsnet down?

On the other hand, perhaps we need posters like Snappity to keep reminding us to be vigilant against the pressure to give up women's protected spaces.

They managed to get a long way quietly towards their goal before it was generally realised what was happening. If we ignore them now they will carry on unchallenged.