FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

We do need posters like snappity yes, but their situation is currently vulnerable and the work they are doing to show the TRA perspective shouldn't be at the expense of their mental health.

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

Thats emotionally abusive bullshit right there, reminds me a lot of my ex partner. I was concerned about you, I am not now as its clear you are just trying to guilt women into doing what YOU want. Fuck that.

Please don't anyone allow yourselves to be goaded by this transparently goady poster who is openly trying to get everyone banned and to control everything said on this forum.

Bye!

To protect male egos
Whoa. Stop right there.

Snappity if you are in a situation where you feel you need to protect male egos then I'm not surprised you find FWR an uncomfortable place. I agree with posters who recommend the Relationship boards.

I won't be posting on this thread again. All the best.

I think people are beginning to recognise that the OP might be in a vulnerable position.

OP some of us have been using gender neutral language for over 30yrs, if you read Dale Spender's classic book "man made language" you will see that using "they" has a long history in English. As an academic feminist I've pushed for the use of gender neutral language, heck, I wrote a whole thesis using it.

Gender reassignment is a protected characteristic in law - but so is Religion. My own religious beliefs include the belief that I should always, and in every situation, tell the truth. No little white lies. As a scientist I know that human beings cannot, biologically, change sex. As a native English speaker I know that we use the terms 'he' and 'she' to denote the biological male and female of a species. To call a male 'she' is to state an untruth. Using 'they' is the way around that. I will not lie.

I do, however, urge you to think carefully about whether this forum is the right place for you. It is called Feminism and Women's rights. It's purpose is to provide a place for women to discuss Feminism and Women's rights, the only reason trans issues are even being discussed on here is because the push from transactivists to change the existing law needs to be more carefully analysed and discussed. Women have realised that the unintended consequences of these proposed changes are pretty disastrous. Nothing you have said so far has reassured us that we are worrying over nothing.

Expanding and giving more rights to ‘gender expressionists’ will never be enough for them. They’ll demand more. Rights means power and power is intoxicating

This is a quote from Angry birds Twitter thread. A very astute observation which is very relevant to this thread.

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1017444210591567872.html

I think they need to Read the Trans widows thread. Outraged that they are carrying on posting despite the upset and damage it is doing to women on here. I resent you all spending your valuable time refuting every last word. There is still no evidence offered for the accusation about us all ganging up to do violent attacks. Mumsnet should ban them. They have said quite enough.

Wow. I have already managed to escape from an abusive controlling bastard who even wanted to get inside my head and control my thoughts..... This is like being back there.

Humans cannot change sex. Trans women are men. We are all 'non binary'. You can try to bully people into changing pronouns and disbelieving reality - but as Galileo said 'But it still moves'.

I think you should leave/post less as it is obvious your mental health is fragile right now,anyone can see that from your increasingly odd posts.

In truth I won't miss you as I personally find you disingenuous and somewhat misogynistic and tend to avoid responding to you.

That said, we don't want anyone affecting themselves adversely by forcing themselves to type on a forum they dislike so it is for the best. I too avoid certain places on the internet I just don't go there as I find it is like picking repeatedly at a scab.

So go well.

as Galileo said 'But it still moves'

My new Spartacus

For the umpteenth time a GRC is NOT required to be protected by 'gender reassignment'

I never said it was. A GRC is required in order to be protected by the protected characteristic of the sex one has transitioned into. So a transwoman with a GRC is protected under the PC of sex as a woman (in addition to being protected under the PC of gender reassignment). A transwomen without a GRC is protected under the PC of sex as a man (as well as being protected under the PC of gender reassignment).

A transwoman without a GRC cannot claim to be discriminated against because they are a woman.

This is why loosening of the GRC procedure contained in the Gender Recognition Act has a knock on effect on the Equality Act, because it means that a larger number of people can be protected under the PC of sex in relation to the sex they identify as rather than the one they were born as.

I'm really concerned about Snappity. They are a lone voice, partly because this is a feminist forum, partly because they choose to be here, partly because their position is so extreme and insupportable, nonone has come to their aid. They will claim they are ganged up on, bullied. But what are we to do when outrageous, offensive, upsetting untruths and demands are posted? They ought to be challenged. But they are upsetting themselves by being here, not just us. Is it even one poster? Arecthere two people with access to the account. Given the hints that something of a controlling nature may be afoot, one does wonder.

I'm off. I hope Snappity gets help and if I see any unchallenged lies, I will challenge them but only if no one else does.

Pratchet

Agreed. The quote I posted up thread was as much for snappitys benefit as anyone else.

I'm off

Good choice. This thread is not helping anybody.

I never said it was. A GRC is required in order to be protected by the protected characteristic of the sex one has transitioned into. So a transwoman with a GRC is protected under the PC of sex as a woman (in addition to being protected under the PC of gender reassignment). A transwomen without a GRC is protected under the PC of sex as a man (as well as being protected under the PC of gender reassignment).

That's not the legal situation though. The situation is more nuanced than that.

AG Bobek commented that there is no “ironclad” rule which dictates the moment at which a trans person becomes entitled to equal treatment under EU law. However, in MB’s case, as the Supreme Court observed, she had already de facto changed gender and satisfied all the physical, social and psychological criteria for recognition of the change of gender, only failing to satisfy the marital criterion.

From www.cloisters.com/blogs/transgender-equality

The situation we have at present is that where artificial barriers exist to obtaining a GRC, someone may de facto have changed legal gender / sex without a GRC. Surely it is in everyone's interests to remove the ambiguities which presently exist by removing the artificial barriers. Self ID does that.

That's not the legal situation though. The situation is more nuanced than that.

That is what the EHR commission says is the state of the law... a link to a barrister’s chambers does not trump the EHR commission...

But good luck explaining to them that a blogpost says they have it wrong...

I don't think I'd be in for a good time if I posted on an MRA board. This seems a funny place to hang out.
Or even if I posted on a snowboarders' board. This is a place to discuss the rights of women and girls.

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

People are not going to stop recognizing sex, Snappity. Not here or, frankly, anywhere else. Biology, for the umpteenth time, is not bigotry.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away.

No one has harassed you. People disagreeing with you isn't harassment, just as centring the needs and rights of women isn't anti trans. This is the Feminism and Women's Rights board, FFS.

What you say about your partner raises a lot of red flags. It's concerning. And your posts are increasingly extreme. I don't think participating in FWR is doing you any good atm. Perhaps take some time out?

Go well.

Have a , OP.

That blogpost simply explains that the U.K. law re requiring a divorce in order to gain a GRC is in contravention of international law anyway...

So snappity please tell us.

Your child goes missing and you are calling the police who in turn are issuing a description to the local community who want to help find them.

What do you tell the police and who do they and local residents look for?

I even wrote about the need to reform this area of the GRA in my response to the consultation. Partners who do not want to remain married to a trans person should be able to give it as a reason to end the marriage/civil partnership, by annulment or divorce (a matter for the govt to decide) but the law should also accommodate couples who both wish to remain married. Anything else is discriminatory.

Sigh. There are no exceptions to the sex status of someone with a GRC

Yes there are, if the 'discrimination' is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim. Hence why, as somebody stated earlier, transwomen can legally be excluded from working in rape crisis centres.