FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

To me that reads as an admission that you knowingly avoid using female pronouns for trans women and substitute the pronouns for non-binary people. That is misgendering and transphobia.

And gaslighting women and forcing them to lie and exerting control over them is abuse and misogyny.

I am saying that the FWR section is a transphobic environment and since posters do not seem to be able to self-moderate to create an environment which welcomes trans women (who are women) that the only remaining option is for Mumsnet HQ to implement the existing prohibition against transphobic posts - with misgendering at the top of list.

Saying they for a trans person is not transphobic. Plus, your insistence that tranwwomen are women is an opinion, not a fact. Its not something you can force people to accept, no matter how much you may want to.

I mean, threads about abortion often upset me, when people post about how its murder and such, as I had an abortion when I was 17. But I would never ever dream of going onto the thread and telling those posters that they were not allowed to post as its definitely not murder, as thats their opinion, and they are welcome to have it. I tend to avoid threads like that because I know some answers will upset me. Maybe you should do the same. Especially if its affecting you as much as it seems to be? You cannot force a feminism section of mumsnet to stop giving a shit about women and girls, thats utterly ridiculous.

An act of violence requires violence to occur. Actual violence. Not offence. Anyone can be offended by anything.

Deliberately misgendering a trans person - or a group of trans people - is an act of psychological violence. Trans people keep saying that.

To me that reads as an admission that you knowingly avoid using female pronouns for trans women and substitute the pronouns for non-binary people. That is misgendering and transphobia

Snappity, please take a break, for the sake of yourself.

What specifically do you want changed?

For trans women, she, her etc
For trans men he, him etc

And an end to denying that trans women are women. In short, for the frequently repeated transphobia to be abated.

Snappity, why no mention of transmen?

Or do you only care about transwomen?

Maybe it is time to simply stop engaging with this thread. It's making me very uncomfortable.

Why is it a crime Snappity, if transwomen are literally women?

To protect male egos since the trans woman will definitely be infertile and a man might feel inadequate if he didn't realise why he could not get her pregnant?

I can't really articulate how reading this makes me feel.

Absolute distress, initially that again we have transwomen described as being 'infertile'

And bafflement and concern that someone female could be so brainwashed as to say this. Straight men do not want to sleep with straight men. Even straight men who have a lot of sex. It is possible to discern someone's sex instantly, when you meet them in the flesh. And if by some miracle you don't do so, then we are looking at having a basic concersation about consent and rape, if you think it's ok not to disclose the reality of who you are. It has nothing to do with anyone's ego.

It's a shift in tactic since the new guidelines. Since language began to be policed, the TRAs have sensed they can push further (quelle surprise) and begin to press for, not just removing terms, but compelling speech.

This is also true. And was quite predictable too. I think most FWR posters pointed this out when the guidelines changed, that nothing besides total capitulation would please TRAs. Seems they were right, shocker!

If you feel anything I post is transphobic please (keep on) reporting.

I will continue to use they, as this has been clarified to be ok under MN talk guidelines. I do not use ‘he’ for any transwoman nor do I deliberately or goadily misgender. I never have.
You may wish to see me banned and with enough reports you can probably achieve that goal. Until that point I will continue to speak up for the rights of women and girls in as calm, measured and accurate a way as I can.

NO. It's a complete sentence, Snappity. Biological males don't change sex. We don't owe you or your partner anything. What you are doing is abusive. Seek help for wanting to control women.

Snappity, why no mention of transmen?

Trans men too but in practice trans men are not misgendered here with anything like the frequency with which trans women are misgendered

I need to correct your world view Snappity. In two comments you said:

Before a trans woman sleeps with a partner she commits a criminal offence if she does not reveal her trans history. That applies to sleeping with lesbians too, not just straight men.

and

To protect male egos since the trans woman will definitely be infertile and a man might feel inadequate if he didn't realise why he could not get her pregnant?

Nope, no and nope again.

Generally the scenario when a transwoman does not reveal the trans status to a male partner, particularly a heterosexual male partner, is either a bashing or murder (which is the cause of most transwomen deaths). The "Surprise! My Lady Penis!" goes down like a lead balloon. Followed by violent male anger at 'being tricked'.

It is perhaps not the alleged 'misgendering' (of neutral pronouns) that should be the focus of your attention, but the actual real world violence of males.

If you are not focusing on that, then you actually don't care about transwomen at all, and perhaps, are just getting some kind of power trip out of making women obey your directives.

A focus on 'misgendering' = First World Problems.

You may wish to refocus your priorities, because they do not seem genuine.

I will continue to use they, as this has been clarified to be ok under MN talk guidelines. I do not use ‘he’ for any transwoman nor do I deliberately or goadily misgender. I never have.

If people deliberately misgender trans women by using pronouns for non-binary people but don't do so for other women I will be reporting it to MNHQ as transphobic

Yes - why are we even bothering to respond to some of the posts who dismiss women as transphobic for defending womens rights on a feminist forum. Furthermore they dont add any counter argument other than cult like mantras . Having a trans 'woman or organazation dictate what a woman is and womens rights is the equivalent of a pro ana website having a say in a chidrens school meal programme

Get help, please. It feels like you are a mouthpiece.

Please take a break snappity, people here are worried about you and I can see why - your posts are coming across as quite unsettling. Even if it's just an hours break from fwr and you read something a bit more lighthearted on mn. I know you are passionate about the cause (though based on today's posts I have real concern that this is very much enforced from elsewhere), but you should not make yourself ill for it. Really snappity, we may disagree but we don't want anyone to be affected like this.

Bollocks!!
Report me all you fucking like but I will not be bullied by you in to lying and validating somebodies delusion.

Go on Snappity run to MNHQ. Its pathetic and frankly i wish you would stay away from MN as your gaslighting is toxic.

I will also continue to use they, or the trans persons name.

I'll also not engage further, it doesn't seem fair to when it's clear there are other factors here.

Snappity I wish you all the best. The relationships board here is fantastic for support.

Please take a break snappity, people here are worried about you and I can see why - your posts are coming across as quite unsettling. Even if it's just an hours break from fwr and you read something a bit more lighthearted on mn. I know you are passionate about the cause (though based on today's posts I have real concern that this is very much enforced from elsewhere), but you should not make yourself ill for it. Really snappity, we may disagree but we don't want anyone to be affected like this.

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

Deliberately misgendering a trans person - or a group of trans people - is an act of psychological violence. Trans people keep saying that.

Snappity Just because trans people say it does not make it right or true.

"Deny science or I'll cry, I will!"

I second the relationships board - it’s a fantastic resource.

I won’t engage with this thread further, I am also feeling rather uneasy about it, and I genuinely wish you well snappity.

Be well.

*For trans women, she, her etc
For trans men he, him etc

And an end to denying that trans women are women. In short, for the frequently repeated transphobia to be abated.*

If these are the conditions your partner has put on allowing you to access mumsnet you have to understand that your partner has put you in an impossible situation.

You cannot force people to comply with your partner’s demands, other people’s compliance is not a gift you can offer in order to appease your partner.

If people genuinely care about trans people and their families they will use correct pronouns and stop denying that trans women are women.

I dont care about transwomen. I care about women and children. I believe adult males can look after themselves.