FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

I thought Snappity said they were intersex, but maybe I am getting them mixed up with another poster?

I can't help but wonder how many of these trans rights activists hate them more than they hate us

They call them Truscum. What does that tell you?

If you dont like it snappity - dont go on a a feminist forum with a post about trans ideology . Sorry you dont like it and it hurts your partners feelz but you know what on all the social media i have seen the worst women argue is that males cant become female and use the male pronoun usually when a transperson is demonstating male charecterised misogny towards bio women. Unlike many trans / allies/ mras who frequently threaten / incite physical / sexual violence, harrassment / doxxing, even posting pictures of womens children from facebook to any women or male they deem terf scum .

dolorsit

well said

Ah ‘rapey riley’ hopefully someone will link to Magdalen Berns in a bit.

How’s she doing since the attack btw? How’s the guy who stepped in to help as well?

I think it’s terribly irresponsible of MN to continue to allow you to post given the mental distress you claim it causes you to suffer.
You need to log off and engage in some help for your mental ill health.

I think @mnhq has intervention strategies when there is concern for a poster

I don't think they include banning though, as that might worsen and isolate. It's possible Snappity would get help on what used to be 'stately Homes' threads or the relationships board?

acceptable because misgendering starts a de-humanisation process.

Only if you believe men aren't human.

MumsNet bans transphobia. The overwhelming majority of trans people see misgendering as transphobic. The Talk Guidelines should be upheld

There are two people who see misgendering as transphobic on here.

Two.

Neither of whom are trans, apparently.

What you call misgendering, I see as upholding women's rights to their sex based category.

Saying 'they' is already a massive concession that many women are not prepared to make.

You will never stop the way people think snappity. Not when it's so obvious.

All you can do is force people to outwardly comply.

That's not a nice way to live.

Now Reilly does say that lesbians are bigoted for saying that they will not have sex with a person with a penis.

Anyone get the feeling that Snappity is actually flouncing because Stonewall defines 'trans' differently from Snappity and this thread is an attempt to take out all of Mumsnet before turning the gun on themself?

Sigh. There are no exceptions to the sex status of someone with a GRC.

A biological male with a GRC can be legally excluded from applying as a job as a rape counsellor of women Snappity. This is specifically mentioned as an example of legitimate proportionate use of the exemptions. Why do you think they would do that?

Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

BAsically you want people to have top refer to male people as she? Thats the real issue here. You don't want the other side of the coin so to speak to be allowed to talk. Only positive stuff allowed. Yeah well thats not going to happen. I lurk here a lot and it seems no different to usual. Yes a lot of trans topics, but thats because the whole trans thing is the imminent threat to womens rights, so obviously fmeinists are concerned.

Maybe avoid the feminist section if people being concerned about women and girls angers you.

I think it’s terribly irresponsible of MN to continue to allow you to post given the mental distress you claim it causes you to suffer.
You need to log off and engage in some help for your mental ill health

It seems to me that you are suggesting that if someone complains about feeling intimated or abused - and some other people can see why so we know it's not paranoia - that instead of dealing with the intimidating environment we should victim blame and tell her to limit her activity "for her own good"? Or have I misunderstood you?

Snappity, here is the link for the relationships board
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships

I'd also have a look at the transwidow thread and see if any of your partners behaviour jumps out as similar. We have disagreed with you a lot here on fwr, but we are still here if you need help

There are many forums/groups for feminism that are also predominantly female, that wholeheartedly support trans rights.

They might be "predominantly female" but they throw women under the bus to pander to males.

Many times MN has closed threads/deleted them and directed the op to seek RL help when it’s obvious that engaging on the threads is causing distress to them but the op seems unable to disengage.

You said you'd been 'driven away' and weren't going to post on this site any more at 6.43am. 7 hours ago. During which time you've posted continually, abrasively and argumentatively.

Or have I misunderstood you?

You’ve completely misunderstood, probably on purpose.

Using a neutral pronoun is not an act of violence. It’s used as PPs point out throughout medical, legal and scientific contexts. When one feels one may innocently make an error it’s probably the safest way to couch speech.

An act of violence requires violence to occur. Actual violence. Not offence. Anyone can be offended by anything.

The whole ‘literal violence’ thing does two negative things. Firstly it demeans the concept of actual, physical violence. Secondly it comes over as an abusive act on the part of the accuser. It’s the same technique abusive men use when they threaten suicide. It aims to shut down the ability to argue, to stand up for oneself and to speak plainly.

Words are not violence. I already comply with the MN talk guidelines in good faith, and I feel my posts are as measured as I can make them. I will not have my already measured language policed any more - it strays into abuse territory and up with that I will not put.

BAsically you want people to have top refer to male people as she? Thats the real issue here. You don't want the other side of the coin so to speak to be allowed to talk. Only positive stuff allowed. Yeah well thats not going to happen. I lurk here a lot and it seems no different to usual. Yes a lot of trans topics, but thats because the whole trans thing is the imminent threat to womens rights, so obviously fmeinists are concerned.

I am saying that the FWR section is a transphobic environment and since posters do not seem to be able to self-moderate to create an environment which welcomes trans women (who are women) that the only remaining option is for Mumsnet HQ to implement the existing prohibition against transphobic posts - with misgendering at the top of list.

Serious proposal now to everyone else: can we just ignore them and let this thread die?

They're just here to goad, not engage.

It's boring if nothing else.

An act of violence requires violence to occur. Actual violence. Not offence. Anyone can be offended by anything.

The whole ‘literal violence’ thing does two negative things. Firstly it demeans the concept of actual, physical violence. Secondly it comes over as an abusive act on the part of the accuser. It’s the same technique abusive men use when they threaten suicide. It aims to shut down the ability to argue, to stand up for oneself and to speak plainly.

All this. Great post.

Using a neutral pronoun is not an act of violence. It’s used as PPs point out throughout medical, legal and scientific contexts. When one feels one may innocently make an error it’s probably the safest way to couch speech.

And

Words are not violence. I already comply with the MN talk guidelines in good faith, and I feel my posts are as measured as I can make them. I will not have my already measured language policed any more - it strays into abuse territory and up with that I will not put.

To me that reads as an admission that you knowingly avoid using female pronouns for trans women and substitute the pronouns for non-binary people. That is misgendering and transphobia.

How is they misgendering? It can be used for both sexes.

MN does already remove posts that deliberately use pronouns in what’s deemed to be an offensive or goady manner.

What specifically do you want changed?