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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

FWR more unpleasant than ever

1000 replies

Snappity · 14/07/2018 06:43

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

OP posts:
Thread gallery
15
TerfsUp · 14/07/2018 12:23

To protect male egos since the trans woman will definitely be infertile and a man might feel inadequate if he didn't realise why he could not get her pregnant?

The meaning of the sentence is so bizarre, so irrational that it beggars belief. Then there is the tortured-to-death-through-contortion syntax.

sociopathsunited · 14/07/2018 12:32

As someone who's only beginning to scratch the surface of this situation, I can honestly say that the only people discussing this subject who scare me are those who insist that biological fact is fake news. You people are terrifying. I don't know if it's simply an attempt to bulldozer your narrow minded view onto the rest of us, or if there's something else behind it.

What I do know, as a woman (born female, staying female), is that I'm under threat from people who are trying to push my head even further underwater than it has been all my life.

I'm supposed to let you drown me, am I? Without speaking out, or screaming, or kicking you in the balls?

I was an ally. I genuinely thought I was on your side. But then, I thought you were on mine, too.

Silly me.

ADastardlyThing · 14/07/2018 12:34

To those who believe there is really no exemptions to the sex status of someone with a GRC, why can't trans men inherit male titles in the nobility?

This is an excellent question.

LemonJello · 14/07/2018 12:36

Snappity is now coming across as not only coerced but also gaslit and even brainwashed

Snappity I have engaged with you in good faith on a number of occasions. I don’t think I will again because I think the above seems likely and I am now very uncomfortable with what you have said re your partners views on what you read, and in not getting out of the house much I imagine that arguing on here must be a significant part of your life just now.

Together with the very extreme views you have, it points to possible vulnerability for me and I am worried the real life effects my words might have on you.

I hope you manage to find some way to reconcile the fact that a significant number of people do not share your views and you were unable to change their minds.

Ofew · 14/07/2018 12:38

Trans women by virtue of the equality act are also protected under sex as women.

That's not the full picture though. They only have the protected characteristic of sex as women if they have a GRC issued under the GRA. Without a GRC transwomen are protected as people who have gender reassignment, one of the other protected characteristics.

This is why amending the GRC by introducing self id makes a difference to the EA: it widens the numbers of people who hold the protected characteristic of a sex other than the one they were born as.

garam · 14/07/2018 12:39

"Garam- please provide evidence for your accusation of incitement to violence."

I said attack trans women, and also to add they attack non-trans women too.

I wasn't speaking about violence, everytime someone post something trans positive, these threads lights up with abuse, and writing letters of complaint to all and sundry.

This forum signal boosts and recruits for just about every anti-trans open letter, anti-trans campaign, attacks every trans activist with a platform, it's unhinged and transparent, and only happens on mumsnet.

This is usually framed as mumsnet is for women, so women are finally speaking up in this 'sanctuary' but it is clearly nonsense.

There are many forums/groups for feminism that are also predominantly female, that wholeheartedly support trans rights.

The reactionaries tend to harumph and head here.

WanderingWavelet · 14/07/2018 12:39

People are the ones we protect - ideologies? Nope, they MUST be open to criticism

Thanks for putting this so clearly. It’s an important distinction.

garam · 14/07/2018 12:40

That's not the full picture though. They only have the protected characteristic of sex as women if they have a GRC issued under the GRA. Without a GRC transwomen are protected as people who have gender reassignment, one of the other protected characteristics.

For the umpteenth time a GRC is NOT required to be protected by 'gender reassignment'

FWR more unpleasant than ever
NotTerfNorCis · 14/07/2018 12:40

also predominantly female

Born female?

Are these forums heavily moderated, with no dissent tolerated?

dolorsit · 14/07/2018 12:41

That's why nobody noticed or cared when the Gender Recognition Act was passed in 2004 - there were no evangelical GC feminists opposing it, or if there was they didn't have a platform like they do now.

That's because back then, there wasn't a really a widely held conception of "GC feminists". It would have been an oxymoron - of course feminists were critical of gender roles/stereotypes.

On feminist boards there was discussion about why "transsexuals" presented themselves in a highly feminised manner. It was explained by transsexuals that doing so eased their dismorphia around their primary sexual characteristics.

Feminists were widely sympathetic as "transsexuals" were predominantly presented as individuals sexualy attracted to the male sex who had or were planning to have surgery to remove their penis.

I was horrified that these individuals may be sent to the male prison estate. But I made an error, I assumed that if out of a very small cohort of 5k (which was the estimated proportion of trans people who would be eligible for this certificate) would go to prison for crimes similar to the type of crimes females committed.

It never occurred to me that they might be rapists. That the category of people known as transsexuals would become "transwomen" which would gradually expand to include individuals who did not want body modification or who had sexual inclinations for doing so.

Back then there were minority views against the change to birth certificate as it is a document stating a fact. However it was perceived that the document was required to get passport/drivers license changed.

There were a few who rejected the concept of calling male transsexuals women as a courtesy. They argued that it wouldn't be enough. That the word female would be coopted. That women would be hampered when discussing the reality of their lives relating to biology and sexism. That lesbians would no longer be able to define as being attracted to the female body.

Frankly, we thought they were a bit paranoid. After all the transsexuals debating with us were all very empathic and insistent on understanding how it would be normal for a female to share an intimate space. (Notice cis hadn't come in then and when it did it referred to biology)

It really pisses me off that those lone voices were correct.

I've watched the narrative change - from "I feel like I'm in the wrong body I need to change it" to "I'm in the wrong body I need to change it" to "I don't need to change my body but it's actually female because I feel female and so is my penis"

That's why there is the push back. Personally it's not mumsnet that has changed my mind it is reading the blogs of tras. Seeing the abuse that old school transsexuals receive. The hatred and misogyny (fish lips anyone) from people who claim to be transwoman or allies. I say claim because a lot of the narrative is the same as the mras who I was butting heads with 10 years ago.

Mumsnet has become a focus because this debate is being closed down elsewhere. I believe it is actually TRA who driving the increase in traffic here. When your average person grasps that despite being in favour of self ID they are considered transphobic because they don't actually believe that transwoman are adult human females.

I'm seeing it on my own timeline, a very vulnerable individual (nb) stating transwoman are women, defriend me if you disagree. Friends are trying to delicately disagree, people who had no real opinion are starting to say hang on a minute "eg x spent years campaigning against s. 28 but is suddenly a bigot because x won't repeat the mantra."

Datun · 14/07/2018 12:45

Why is it a crime Snappity, if transwomen are literally women?

To protect male egos since the trans woman will definitely be infertile and a man might feel inadequate if he didn't realise why he could not get her pregnant?

Firstly the transwoman may not be infertile. Having a penis does not make you infertile.

And secondly the example was for a pre-op transwoman. Are you seriously suggesting that when two male bodied individuals have sex one of them might be wondering how come the other one is not pregnant, on the basis that they identify as a woman?

NeedChoos · 14/07/2018 12:48

Ok I’m a lurker...don’t normally post but read quite a bit. However this from the op has got my goat...so fucking much I pissed about logging in / new password/ link from freaking email etc just so I can say... WHAT FUCKING JEFF!?

*Why is it a crime Snappity, if transwomen are literally women?

To protect male egos since the trans woman will definitely be infertile and a man might feel inadequate if he didn't realise why he could not get her pregnant?*

Male egos... my arse. This is such a crock of shite that I’ve peak trans my peak trans... they need to tell them because they are about to have sex and have a right to make INFORMED CONSENT

Everyone should be able to do that...consent is non negotiable and Snappity you blowing it off does a disservice to both men and women.

misscockerspaniel · 14/07/2018 12:49

It is incorrect to say that using "they" instead of he or she is wrong.

In a debate in the House of Lords on 25 June 2018, Lord Young of Cookham said, inter alia: "Since 2007, all new legislation has been drafted using gender-neutral language". Thus, it is not only perfectly acceptable but also politically correct to use "they". Smile

AngryAttackKittens · 14/07/2018 12:54

No I am saying that having one or two people saying it is free speech but when so many say it that it shouts down any reasonable opposition that that is oppressive.

This is not for the OP, but for MNHQ if they're reading this thread and considering giving the OP what she wants - how are you going to decide which women are allowed to have free speech and which women must have their speech curtailed and censored, if it's only acceptable for one or two of us to state biological facts at a time?

HotRocker · 14/07/2018 12:55

This is a feminism board, where we discuss issues in the context of safeguarding women and girls. There are many, many trans boards on the Internet where you can discuss issues from the point of view of transpeople.If you find being in an environment where you are not centred in everything triggering, I suggest you take a proactive approach and find a place where you will feel more comfortable.
I am visually impaired. I don’t go on a message board for people with hearing impairments and kick and scream because they’re not centring me. Neither do I go on a message board for people of colour and scream at them because they’re being mean about white people.

BertrandRussell · 14/07/2018 12:55

Garam- I wholeheartedly support trans rights too. What rights do trans people not have?

Datun · 14/07/2018 12:56

I thought snappity was a transwoman. Is that not right?

Snappity are you are transwoman? And is J4nice your partner?

AnchorMum · 14/07/2018 12:59

Dear Snappity, like many others on here I'm so sorry to hear you and your partner are not well. I think that has become
apparent to us from what you have been saying, and we all sympathise with you. Go well, get well and stay well.

You're right that you need to take a break - there's a fantastic tennis match on telly starting in a few minutes that might cheer you and your partner up. Talented male athletes displaying their skills.

If you don't want to watch the men, then the women's finals is on after that. Two incredible female athletes - one of whom has just returned to the sport after having a baby: she spent 6 weeks in bed after an emergency caesarean and blood clots. She's now on course to win the Wimbledon finals Smile Women rock!

sociopathsunited · 14/07/2018 13:00

Trans rights activists have changed my mind. It's their venomous campaigns that have turned me from my previous "lets all coexist" to "fuck no you're NOT coming into my safe space and trampling on all my rights".

you know who's lost out?

The genuine transsexuals. Those who REALLY need the support and friendship. I can't help but wonder how many of these trans rights activists hate them more than they hate us.

YetAnotherSpartacus · 14/07/2018 13:04

every anti-trans open letter, anti-trans campaign, attacks every trans activist with a platform, it's unhinged and transparent, and only happens on mumsnet

What anti-trans letters, campaigns, etc? I've never seen one, let alone one promoted here.

IAmLurkacus · 14/07/2018 13:05

Are you seriously suggesting that when two male bodied individuals have sex one of them might be wondering how come the other one is not pregnant, on the basis that they identify as a woman?

Some of the shite being peddled to teens on the net, I no longer believe getting to this point would be impossible!

AngryAttackKittens · 14/07/2018 13:10

And I'm now going to join others in not engaging with Snappity any further, as they're clearly in a vulnerable situation and in need of the kind of assistance that I am not legally qualified to provide.

SophoclesTheFox · 14/07/2018 13:11

Datun, Snappity has shared that Snappity identifies as intersex.

I say "identified" as I am not sure how to match that with snappitys other stated belief that being intersex is being somehow between male and female, which is not, I believe, a view commonly held by intersex people. However, this is all of a piece with Snappity having some fairly unique views on the situation that are in opposition to the mainstream elements of their activism/lobbying groups - e.g. Snappity seems to think that Stonewall's definition of trans is incorrect, for being too broad.

Snappity's partner (possibly J4nice? not sure where this came from) identifies as trans.

Stop me if I'm misrepresenting you, snappity. I am sure you will correct me every bit as brusquely and erroneously as you have done several times before.

Snappity · 14/07/2018 13:11

Here is a video which explains why misgendering (and that includes saying they) is an act of violence

And, yes, she doesn't mean physical violence but she makes the very valid point that in misgendering a trans person you make it easier for people to believe that physical violence against trans people is acceptable because misgendering starts a de-humanisation process.

MumsNet bans transphobia. The overwhelming majority of trans people see misgendering as transphobic. The Talk Guidelines should be upheld.

OP posts:
SophoclesTheFox · 14/07/2018 13:12

*for "intersex people" in my post above, please read 'people with disorders of sexual development". I phrased that badly.

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