FWR more unpleasant than ever

[Snappity]

The Talk Guidelines have done little to improve things. The majority of threads are about trans matters and very few, if any, positive. Misgendering is increasingly rife. "They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

Even the sex of trans women with female birth certificates is not respected.

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Then increasingly material from elsewhere which is anti-trans is being linked.

While individual comments are fair enough, the sheer volume means that FWR is a thoroughly unpleasant place for the majority of trans people and those of us who have trans family members.

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts that women are XX or are those with female reproductive capacity. It is hugely offensive.

I am going to be here less. The harassment - and I think that is what it is - has driven me away. It is a shame because trans and intersex feminists - indeed trans inclusive feminists - should be as welcome here as any other feminists. If MumsNet believes in debate that means ensuring that one side isn't shouted down - and the sheer volume of people saying that trans women are not women and belong in male spaces (because anyone "male" is a risk to women) is shouting down the other side of the debate.

FWR needs to regain a balance.

[TransplantsArePlants]

It's never been worth it for you to engage with us, nor us you. If you'd be happier elsewhere then do it.

[NotTerfNorCis]

"They" for a trans woman is as bad as "he".

No, it's a compromise for people who don't want to be forced to lie about someone's sex.

One thing I agree on though. The new guidelines have had far less impact on debate than people feared. And that is great.

[R0wantrees]

I would strongly encourage caution before engaging with this thread.

cf
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305291-Trans-activsims-appropriation-of-intersex

[NotBadConsidering]

Intersex women are also repeatedly disrespected with frequent posts...

...that appropriate intersex into the transgender debate.

[Snappity]

One thing I agree on though. The new guidelines have had far less impact on debate than people feared. And that is great.

In aggregate, I believe FWR is transphobic because of the gestatalt of the sheer volume of anti-trans posts. I don't think that is "great" at all, and I doubt many trans people or family of trans people would see the present situation as "great".

[CoteDAzur]

OP - It is not FWR's duty, goal, or purpose to be "pleasant".

If honesty and truth hurt your feelings, there is the entire internet out there where women are silenced on this issue and made to toe the line.

[noeffingidea]

I am going to be here less
Oh no, what a shame. How will we manage to discuss women's rights without your constant presence, OP?

[barkwood]

Thanks for the heads up ROwantrees. Yes won't be engaging with this one.

[EmpressWeaponisedClitoris]

I would strongly encourage caution before engaging with this thread.
cf
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3305291-Trans-activsims-appropriation-of-intersex

Oh I see. Ok. Bye, Snappity, look after yourself.

[boatyardblues]

This thread reads like an opera fan complaining on a football forum that there’s too much discussion about football. This is a feminist topic, so try not to act so surprised that posters are centring your viewpoint. There are plenty of other places on the internet you could be getting “positive strokes.” This wasn’t ever going to be one of them.

[FeckTheMagicDragon]

Maybe you should move this to www.mumsnet.com/Talk/flouncers_corner ?
HTH

[LittleLebowski]

Have you started a thread about a positive aspect regarding trans matters snappity? I will happily contribute if I have anything to add.
MN is an open forum. People start threads on the topics they want. You can't expect MN to ensure that the thread subjects have a required amount of gender critical / pro self-ID content
Your understanding of biology is your own, I can't see how you can be upset that not everyone agrees with your beliefs about science? Links to other material are for people who may be interested. No one is obliged to either read or agree with them, but it is certainly not your role or MN role to evaluate them for 'balance'. I can form my own opinion thanks. If anything promotes violence or is shocking or whatever, there are perfectly adequate ways to report things and MN is quick to act in comparison to many other platforms.
This reads as a very self-indulgent whinge and has no merit in my view.

[AncientLights]

I see no reason for this place to be 'pleasant'. If you find the truth uncomfortable Snappity, then so be it. You persistently disregard the truth, down to even basic biological facts, as you show here. Off you go.

[Stilettosandan0venglove]

Snap why don't you stay and work on the things you agree with the majority here about?

Like your opposition to self ID on the grounds that there's potential for abuse as you said on another thread.

Or did I misunderstand? Do you support self ID even though you think people will abuse it?

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3295930-Why-cant-transmen-inherit-over-males?pg=1&order=

[HemanOrSheRa]

It's not Gatwick. You don't have to announce your departure.

[Snappity]

Maybe you should move this to //www.mumsnet.com/Talk/flouncers_corner

No because my resolve that FWR should not put down a particular protected characteristic is undiminished. I will still be here, just less.

[WibblePod]

I see. Women on a feminism board discussing gender are 'disrespectful' and 'unpleasant' when they don't agree.
Consider that the issue at hand could have a major legislative impact on women, and has seen women threatened, assaulted, doxxed, prevented from meeting, and even had their children's photos shared online a few days ago.
But hey, be nice, ladies.

[Snappity]

Snap why don't you stay and work on the things you agree with the majority here about?

Because when my partner sees me reading MumsNet it upsets her. So I will be here less when she is about.

She knows that most people here don't think she is a woman and are campaigning to have her, and women like her, excluded from women's toilets etc. She has asked me to be here less and I think I should respect that since it upsets her so much.

[MoggyP]

Causing offence - when it concerns a protected characteristic. is not just a matter of being unpleasant, though.

It is a matter of being wrong.

And when there are 'competing' characteristics, then the example of religious community v LG community is about the only one. The LG community redefined what certain religions can do in public.

The trans community are akin to the LG one in that example, and GC radfems are a fundamentalist church.

Not everyone on MN - including feminists - agrees with the GC stance.

[R0wantrees]

Maya Angelou

[Bowlofbabelfish]

There is post after post that trans women are not women and that sex is biological and cannot be changed (totally ignoring that many aspects of sex can be changed).

Your first statement is true. Humans cannot change sex - I thought we agreed on that?

No aspects of sex can be changed. Surgery and hormones make no difference to the sex of the organism. They make a cosmetic difference to the appearance of the body. They alter nothing about its sex.

So those posts are biologically truthful.

[Snappity]

I didn't pick it up on the thread in question but someone claimed that you have to know "natal" sex to monitor kidney function accurately. That is totally wrong. When someone transitions and takes hormones the baseline moves from male to female (or vice versa) over the course of about 5 years. Kidneys change sex.

On hormones trans women develop breasts and trans men develop facial hair, male patten baldness and their voice breaks. All changes in attributes of sex.

Biological sex isn't binary. It is a categorisation based on several attributes of sex and consequently biological sex can and does change. That's the science.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

Causing offence - when it concerns a protected characteristic. is not just a matter of being unpleasant, though.It is a matter of being wrong.

I’d disagree with this.

If I’m criticising a collaegue’s religion at work in front of her at coffee time, I’m being an arse, and creating a hostile environment for her. That’s wrong. What I was saying may not technically be incorrect but I would be wrong to say it in that context.

If I’m on mumsnet, as an anonymous individual saying that I strongly disagree with aspects x and y of said religion that's not wrong.

No religion, no ideology gets a free pass. None. Because if we put into lawvthat you can’t criticise religion we are utterly screwed. Look at the countries that have systems to legally prevent people criticising religion - basket cases, the lot.

So the bar is not ‘offending a community in the abstract’ it’s ‘discrimination against a person or community.’

Tony Blair tried to bring in blasphemy laws. Rowan Atkinson quite rightly pointed out that the law as was writ would have criminalised the writers of the vicar of donkey.

people are protected.
ideology is not.

snappity if I was your partners boss or colleague I would do everything I could to make sure they had a decent and non discriminatory working atmosphere. I would stand up for them against any discrimination they faced. Because as an individual they are protected. Just as I have done for religious colleagues who have faced open discrimination in places I’ve worked. I’ve stood up for them every single time I’ve seen it. I’m also an atheist.

I will still critique the ideology behind religion, and the TRA ideology.

People are the ones we protect - ideologies? Nope, they MUST be open to criticism.

[Bowlofbabelfish]

didn't pick it up on the thread in question but someone claimed that you have to know "natal" sex to monitor kidney function accurately. That is totally wrong. When someone transitions and takes hormones the baseline moves from male to female (or vice versa) over the course of about 5 years. Kidneys change sex.

eGFR changes ? Do you have data for that?

[R0wantrees]

With apologies for the derail but Bowl am amused by your autocorrrect of The Vicar of Donkey! Poor Dibley.