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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex

67 replies

SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 13:10

Saw this excellent thread on twitter today. Lots of interesting information.

So that's women, children, transexuals and intersex people getting trampled over by TRAs. Who will be next?

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SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 13:11

twitter.com/mrkhtake2/status/1013106135002476544?s=19

"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices."

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 14:47

It is worth noting that the NHS indentifies intersex conditions as a cause of gender dysphoria www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/ and that the rest of the potential causes are all intersex too. So before we get people saying that intersex and transsexuality should not be conflated, the NHS does and, as an intersex woman, I don't see a big distinction between the two (although there is between intersex and things like transvestite).

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 14:48

So that's women, children, transexuals and intersex people getting trampled over by TRAs. Who will be next?

Please withdraw this accusation

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Wanderabout · 13/07/2018 15:02

Other members of the intersex community have very different views to you Snappity.

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Maryzsnewaccount · 13/07/2018 15:07

Snappity, for clarity, what do you mean by intersex? Do you mean a chromosomal anomaly, or do o you classify intersex (as you classify sex) without reference to chromosomes at all?

I'm just asking as your posts on this topic in particular are confusing the heck out of me.

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SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 15:11
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SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 15:13
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SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 15:13
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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 15:20

This is an unrolled thread by @ mrkhtake2
(links in document at end)

"We need to talk about what’s happening to the intersex community. I mean, seriously. I know I talk about it all the time but it’s critical, so here’s a quick thread with a potted background and a few articles raising intersex voices.
Currently there’s a lot of talk about intersex conditions, “sex spectrums”, women without wombs, etc. I see John Money being extolled as an expert (Google him if you don’t know – it’s grim). A lot of this talk unfortunately ends up getting regurgitated in the mainstream media too
The problem in the UK is that Trans Media Watch have been allowed to become voice of the intersex community, for example, in this report to the hate crimes committee which was submitted by them..
[link in doc]

The document says intersex all over it but represents very little from intersex community. In fact, if this is supposed to be looking at accurate reporting and media representation in order to fight prejudice, why didn’t they pick up on this?

@ NUJofficial why does your LGBT+ advice say that intersex people are transgender and reduce complex medical conditions to one wildly inaccurate statement? This is ignorant and offensive, and explains why our representation is so poor in the media. Can you please fix this?

Quick note: The head of NUJ ethics council has said they will review this at their next meeting since being made aware

Gender radical trans organisations can’t represent intersex people as their beliefs are interphobic. I witness this all the time. The gender radical view that chromosomes have nothing to do with sex and my inability to conform means I am called a man a lot by trans activists.
In other words, I must be “fixed” or comply. If you want to begin to understand the damage that does, this article contains the perspective of women with MRKH and the experts that work with them.

Here’s a perspective from another organisation that supports women with AIS [see link in doc]

My friend with CAIS has had very similar to me from trans activists and I know how upsetting that has been for her too.
Not only does gender radical thinking take from us the language we need to understand our bodies the whole approach to intersex flies in the face of what the community explicitly wants for itself. For example WPATH’s disappointing pathologizing of treatment for intersex children

WPATH guidelines available here if you want to feel futile about the medical profession [link in doc]

This has caused understandably heated reactions from the intersex community

Here’s an interesting and devastating blog post from an intersex person in the Netherlands about the impact such protocols has had on their own medical care.

However transgender people want their conditions to be categorised and treated, this has nothing to do with intersex people. As you can see this conflation is harmful to the intersex community, who represent a minority but crucial voice in this whole debate.
That voice is being drowned out. Intersex and transgender are not the same thing. In reality, very few transgender people actually have intersex conditions.

Even those members of our community that do transition are finding this appropriation difficult and noticing rifts within the community and their voices being drowned out. For such a tiny group, we cannot allow this to happen.

There are no laws protecting intersex people in the UK. They are an incredibly vulnerable group. We need to find a way to prevent this appropriation and give a voice to the community before they are silenced completely.

In the meantime, go and follow @ ClareCAIS and @ RaeUK, two amazing intersex women who explain all of this stuff better than I ever will.
I'm also going to add @TriciaFrasman's brilliant thread that picks apart the offensive "sex spectrum" arguments used. I also recommend giving Dr Tricia a follow."

threadreaderapp.com/thread/1013106135002476544.html

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beenandgoneandbackagain · 13/07/2018 15:22

Everytime we see the LGBTQIA+ we need to call out their misappropriation of the "I".

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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 15:27

Snappity were you not aware of this?

I presume either you weren't aware or otherwise it would seem that you were attempting to silence /obscure these perspectives from the intersex community?

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SunsetBeetch · 13/07/2018 15:30

Happy to if you can give me a coherent teason as to why, Snappity. I haven't seen your posts on intersex conditions on here.

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 15:44

It is intersex if any of the biological aspects of sex are not aligned

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 15:46

I presume either you weren't aware or otherwise it would seem that you were attempting to silence /obscure these perspectives from the intersex community?

They are welcome to come on here and express their view so they are not silenced at all

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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 15:51

I was referreing to the perspective,

'that intersex people getting trampled over by TRAs'

You requested it be withdrawn.

see unrolled thread above.

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gendercritter · 13/07/2018 15:52

It is intersex if any of the biological aspects of sex are not aligned

Snappity while you are more than free to withold private information about yourself, I don't understand this. 'Aligned' seems to suggest you are trans?

You have mentioned on several threads that you are intersex. Which condition do you have if you are happy saying? Or were you what some term 'amab' but consider yourself to be female and that is makes you intersex? It would be very useful in terms of further understand your position to tell what the truth is.

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TheGoddessFrigg · 13/07/2018 15:53

twitter.com/TriciaFrasman/status/1006161802823159809

I would also highly recommend this thread - which totally demolishes the idea of sex being a 'spectrum'.

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 15:58

You have mentioned on several threads that you are intersex. Which condition do you have if you are happy saying? Or were you what some term 'amab' but consider yourself to be female and that is makes you intersex? It would be very useful in terms of further understand your position to tell what the truth is.

I am not comfortable sharing. Mumsnet has had data leaks.

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Snappity · 13/07/2018 16:03

I would also highly recommend this thread - which totally demolishes the idea of sex being a 'spectrum'.

It definitely doesn't. Sex has many attributes which don't always align.

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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:12

Yesterday, I started reading a recently published book, 'Trans: Exploring Gender Identity & Dysphoria- a guide for everyone (including professonals)' edited by Dr Az Hakeem.

//www.drazhakeem.com

He has written the introductory chapters.
(The definition of sex and gender are shown in the free access below)

Source:
www.amazon.co.uk/TRANS-Exploring-Identity-Dysphoria-Pulling/dp/1911246496?tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-21

Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex
Trans activsim's appropriation of intersex
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gendercritter · 13/07/2018 16:12

Ok well I must state it seems most likely from how you are describing yourself that you are in fact trans. Which is fine - there is nothing wrong with being yourself. If I am wrong, I have no other information to go on to understand the truth.

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R0wantrees · 13/07/2018 16:13

Are you aware of Dr Az Hakeem Snappity ?

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jellyfrizz · 13/07/2018 16:30

It is intersex if any of the biological aspects of sex are not aligned

Can you explain what you mean by this?

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Offred · 13/07/2018 16:58

It is worth noting that the NHS indentifies intersex conditions as a cause of gender dysphoria //www.nhs.uk/conditions/gender-dysphoria/ and that the rest of the potential causes are all intersex too. So before we get people saying that intersex and transsexuality should not be conflated, the NHS does and, as an intersex woman, I don't see a big distinction between the two (although there is between intersex and things like transvestite).

Yes, it is easy to understand why being intersex might increase your risk of suffering gender dysphoria.

Please note this is not the NHS ‘conflating intersex and transsexuality’, this is the NHS stating these two conditions may be comorbid.

Please also note this is not the NHS saying intersex is a type of transgenderism as is often claimed.

Please also note this is not the NHS saying gender dysphoria is an intersex condition, as is often claimed.

Please also note the existence of DSDs, or comorbidity with gender dysphoria, does not mean sex is not binary or that gender identity is biologically based.

That often cited nature article has been thoroughly debunked over and over again. So please stop posting it as evidence of a big development in science which has ‘found’ that sex is actually a spectrum, the spectrum is the spectrum within intersex conditions not a spectrum of sex.

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