Is it possible not to agree thatTWAW

[BertrandRussell]

ans not be transphobic? Because I think transwomen are transwomen and deserve all the rights and protections of the law, and should to live their lives peacefully, unharnessed and using any names or pronouns they wish. But I don't think they are actually, literally women. Incidentally, neither does the only transperaon I know well enough who is old enough to ask. If thinking that makes me transphobic is she transphobic too?

As long as they let the men in?

I don't think trans women are women. Nor do I think trans men are men.
I don't see how that is 'anti-trans'. I'm happy to treat trans people as the gender to which they have been re-assigned, or the gender (stereotype?) which they identify with, I just don't believe that they have changed sex.

If that makes me a transphobe then so be it. (and I have been labelled that and a TERF in twitter conversations that I have tried to conduct civilly and open-mindedly, and then been accused of being a sealion?!)

But I am not anti-trans or 'filled with hate'.

daimbars
What I don't get is surely it's in the best long term interests of women to accept TWAW?
Accept them now and we might have to share the occasional toilet or crochet club.
Reject them now leading to a fear and humiliation about coming out as trans... and these repressed individuals end up marrying our daughters

Wow we've moved on from women just be nice to it will hurt your children if you dont do it!

No. Transwomen as a group are a subset of men.

As for cant have transwomen & transmen in the same toilets/changing areas...are you suggesting mixed sex is a mistake?

Daim, you talk of anti trans rhetoric........do you even realise that you yourself are being anti trans by suggesting that transwomen aren't actually women? (By stating that they are only women sometimes you are saying they aren't really women, which is probably number 1 on the list of 'anti trans things to say')

"Man Friday, the Pride Protests, websites dedicated to peak transing, 99% of the threads on FWR - all anti trans rhetoric"
Ah right. The usual definition. Anything which does not wholeheartedly accept that TWAW and should have full and innediatw access to all women's spaces is "anti trans".

The lack of understanding of the GRA and the Equality Act and the fact they are two entirely bits of legislation irritates me

Daim, you and I had a really good conversation about this, do you not remember?

I said that everyone does know they are separate bits of legislation but the issue is that they interact with each other.

We discussed the goady lgbt Lib Dem twitter post about this and I laid out an example (using the nhs) about how they do interact and you agreed.

Was that a complete waste of my time?

I wasn't talking about you LemonJello - you totally get it.

Some posters think that amendments to the GRA (self ID) will lead to trans women being legally recognised as women when in fact this has been the case for 13 years.

I don’t think I do totally get it then, because the issue is that with self id, it will be much more difficult to exclude transwomen that would be excluded now, eg those that don’t have gender dysphoria and have only “lived as women” for eg the few weeks or whatever it takes to get a GRC. These people will be legally recognised as women where they weren’t before.

I haven’t seen anyone arguin that transwomen aren’t legally recognised as women now but will be with the proposed amendments to the GRA?

If you have seen this feel free to link though.

Otherwise maybe you have misunderstood their objections rather than them misunderstanding the legislation?

My discussion with Jelly at the end of this thread is one example:

Feeling dumb here... apologies, could someone clarify Equality Act???www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3303972-Feeling-dumb-here-apologies-could-someone-clarify-Equality-Act

A major problem is that the term 'trans' no longer equates with 'transexual' (the person diagnosed with gender dysphoria who has, or is in the process of transitioning). The term now includes transvestites, cross-dressers, fetishists and men who retain their penis and/or facial hair etc. I realise that the twittersphere isn't the world but it's clear that many of men who are identifying as women fit in to these latter categories. More importantly, they clearly don't identify with women. The levels of vitriol are frightening. Self-ID would enable these man to legally become women and to access sex-segregated spaces. Or have I got this all wrong?

Oldstyle this is the perception but in reality a GRC has no bearing on entry to single sex spaces.

At the moment a trans person is required to live in their acquired gender before obtaining a GRC so they are required to use single sex spaces for two years before they get legal recognition of their gender.

Therefore a GRC is neither here nor there. Trans people have been using single sex spaces without one for 13 years and probably longer.

Also, the world isn't suddenly going to lose all common sense and welcome sinister men into female spaces just because of a change in the admin process of getting a GRC.

Why are you still talking about “at the moment” when people’s objections are very obviously to the proposed amendments to the GRA?
It’s Self ID that’s problematic, you must have grasped that? And why?

Also, the world isn't suddenly going to lose all common sense and welcome sinister men into female spaces just because of a change in the admin process of getting a GRC.

But how will you stop the predatory men simply using the fact that self-id means a man does not even have to look like a woman from using it to enter women's spaces?

In addition, this "change in the admin process" means that the men on the fetish end of the spectrum - the ones we're actually worried about - will definitely be able to enter (or demand entry) to women's spaces. It's the reason this campaign and lobbying has happened - the relatively tiny number of what most of them still prefer to be called transsexuals have been overwhelmed by the large number of Stonewall-defined trans types.

A predatory man could say he was beginning his transition now under the current law. Self ID makes little difference. A trans woman at the beginning of her two years living as a woman will probably not look female.

If a predatory man wants to be predatory he just will - he isn't going to go to the trouble of legally changing his gender first.

I just got a 30 day fb ban for this

I’ll repeat that after you as many times as necessary. Hope I live that long...

I have been on a lot of these threads on various names over the past few months, seen some stuff on Twitter and FB.

I still haven't seen anything coming close to a reasonable explanation of how transwomen are women.

@daimbars if TWAW then what are they 'transing' from?

What is it exactly that women and transwomen have in common that men don't?

Any bets on how long it takes for DrRadfem's take-off to appear somewhere on the twitsphere pretending that was what actually happened rather than being a reaction to the Orwellian TRA original?

daim

I am a little busy so have just skimmed that thread you linked, however jelly’s last post looks like she gets it but has just misunderstood what you were referring to? She says

Oh, you’re only referring to trans women with a GRC not trans women in general. I thought we were talking about the EA and gender reassignment.

However, you say:

There are no plans or proposals to change the EA which allows organisations to provide single sex services and provisions. A trans woman is generally able to access these provisions either before or after obtaining a GRC.

And my example on the thread I mentioned explained how this is not necessarily true, and that there is different treatment of transwomen with and without a GRC wrt EqA exemptions.

As I said I am busy just now but when I get a sec I will read the thread you linked more thoroughly and will c&p my example re GRC making a difference to how EqA exemptions are applied.

I hope you can agree though that it’s a fairly complicated business. I suppose it’s fair enough to get irritated with those who have misunderstood it. But to be honest, you have contributed to some of that misunderstanding as our previous conversation attests to.

Drrad the truth is banned bigly
The lie is approved
We have always been at war with eastAsia

That picture will probably be removed.

It's a picture of the repeat after me projection on to MoJ and has had wo removed from the last word.

don't think so. If TRA can say trans'women are women the we can say trans'women are men

LemonJello yes I agree it's a complicated business.

I don't think even the most hardcore rad fems really mind a respectful trans woman who transitioned eons ago nipping in the ladies loo once in a while and of course I do not want a burly, predatory man changing next to me in a female changing room so there has to be a middle ground somewhere.

I haven't been aware of a battle between GC feminists and TRAs over the last 13 years, it's only become a problem really recently when the proposed changes were announced.

of course I do not want a burly, predatory man changing next to me in a female changing room

Daim's peaking!