Is it possible not to agree thatTWAW

[BertrandRussell]

ans not be transphobic? Because I think transwomen are transwomen and deserve all the rights and protections of the law, and should to live their lives peacefully, unharnessed and using any names or pronouns they wish. But I don't think they are actually, literally women. Incidentally, neither does the only transperaon I know well enough who is old enough to ask. If thinking that makes me transphobic is she transphobic too?

I don't care if it means I could be considered transphobic. I could choke down everything I know to be true and parrot TRANSWOMEN ARE WOMEN WAR IS PEACE FREEDOM IS SLAVERY DICKS CAN BE FEMALE AND I CHOSE TO IDENTIFY WITH THE GENDERING THE WORLD DID TO ME BECAUSE OF MY SEX, and then I could find myself transphobic for thinking transwomen don't have periods, or can't get pregnant, or whatever.

If all these little millennials are still performing what they think femininity is in 20/30 years time, I wonder if they'll start pretending to have the menopause? It's all just fucking ridiculous now.

I think I sympathise more than most because it's only a few years since people were spewing bile about gay people being able to marry, adopt, have children etc.

I know what it's like to be on the receiving end of prejudice about something I have no control over.

Iam I was chatting to a male friend about this recently and he said if he saw a trans man in a male changing room he would try and do everything he could to make the person feel comfortable

I think I sympathise more than most

What makes you think people don't have sympathy or empathy?

I had LOADS - I have known trans people since the 80s.

I have worked with trans people and shock horror - even hugged them and comforted them when upset.

It isn't what we would call 'genuine trans women' that are the issue.

The issue is the violent and disturbing behaviour of Genderists. Who have campaigned to obliterate the word 'women' and to remove safeguards for women and girls to allow anyone to say anything and it be true.

I was chatting to a male friend about this recently and he said if he saw a trans man in a male changing room he would try and do everything he could to make the person feel comfortable

Yes, of course he would. Quite right too. (Or at least, not make the TM uncomfortable).

Does your friend know many men who have been physically/sexually abused by women? Is there any female equivalent of AGP?

It's not symmetrical.

Why do we have to lie and say a transwoman is a woman to be inclusive and sympathetic?

A transwoman is man who may present in traditionally female manner and may genuinely feel like what they think a woman feels like. That's perfectly OK.

Why is there a push to say he is a woman?

I'm particularly interested in what you think daim as your pov seems to be different to mine.

I deeply sympathise with transwomen, I do know what it's like to want to be something I know I will never be, I'm sure most of us have been there.

It's possible to have sympathy without reinforcing a false belief, that's rather cruel imo.

Not false belief, false truth? Clumsy wording, you know what I mean.

Rabbits it's about equality in my opinion. As a gay person I believe I should have equal rights to any straight woman bar a few exceptions such as the ability to get married in a church. I accept I cannot demand full equality.

I believe a trans woman should have the same rights as any other woman bar a few exceptions. What these exceptions should be is up for debate but my personal view is there should be a period of time before trans women should be able to apply to be on all women shortlists, sports is a tricky should be assessed on a case by case basis and a trans women should not have an unfair advantage. I believe it should continue to be lawful to exclude trans women from applying for certain job roles.

I believe a trans woman should have the same rights as any other woman bar a few exceptions. What these exceptions should be is up for debate but my personal view is there should be a period of time before trans women should be able to apply to be on all women shortlists, sports is a tricky should be assessed on a case by case basis and a trans women should not have an unfair advantage. I believe it should continue to be lawful to exclude trans women from applying for certain job roles.

This is what ALL 'transphobes' want. Glad you finally agree with us.

Why should trans women have the same rights as any other women when they already have the same rights as any other man, just for the asking?

This is what ALL 'transphobes' want. Glad you finally agree with us.

I agree it’s broadly similar. So it’s interesting daim, that you tend to position yourself against gender critical feminists, whose views you broadly agree with, but haven’t (as far as I’m aware) argued against someone like Snappity/Gibberty, who calls a rape crisis centre is “odious” for refusing to employ a transwoman.

Or Snappity who says single sex examptions should also exclude butch lesbians/ masculine looking women.

That's so funny. You can't even see that what you are saying is 'transphobic'. Its all about avoiding the label 'transphobic' isn't it? You feel over whelming pressure to 'be liberal' more importantly 'be seen and accepted as liberal'. Everything you say is about demonstrating that.

Yet you dislike it when people say the same things as you, more bluntly because they don't feel that social pressure, and they realise that social pressure is indeed part of the problem because its interfering with having a free and open conversation on this that focus on safeguarding rather than on the fragile identity of both militant TRAs and liberals desparate to prove their faith and belief in liberal morality.

The problem is you can not pussy foot around this.

You are subservient to the militant TRAs who are using your desire to 'do the right thing' against you. They do not offer the respect you offer them to women.

Wakey wakey.

Yet you dislike it when people say the same things as you, more bluntly because they don't feel that social pressure, and they realise that social pressure is indeed part of the problem because its interfering with having a free and open conversation on this that focus on safeguarding rather than on the fragile identity of both militant TRAs and liberals desparate to prove their faith and belief in liberal morality.

YY

Also: women failing to display female socialisation when they speak is the most dangerous, shocking thing ever. What more proof that we live in a sexist patriarchy? Women must never speak plainly.

Fuck that, say I.

"sports is a tricky should be assessed on a case by case basis and a trans women should not have an unfair advantage."
So. How would you assess what?

Daim- are you sure you're not being a bit transphobic there?

But but but, if transwomen are women, why should there be any exemptions?

I agreed with RedToothbrush.

Yet you dislike it when people say the same things as you, more bluntly because they don't feel that social pressure, and they realise that social pressure is indeed part of the problem because its interfering with having a free and open conversation on this that focus on safeguarding rather than on the fragile identity of both militant TRAs and liberals desparate to prove their faith and belief in liberal morality.

Here we are again, your belief in transgenderism, falls apart because there is no universal objective moral code.

I ask again Diam am I wrong when I repeat what was stated by a philosopher, it is difficult if not impossible for a society to have a universal objective moral code without the aid of a supernatural element?

Transgenderism has no ET, no God, nothing giving humanity anything, it's just self interest narcissists staring into the water with lots of echoes who lost everything chanting TWAW.

So trans women are women except......... So in other words they are different

So in answer to the OP yes it is possible not to agree that TWAW if this is an internal belief system.

Yes it is possible not to agree that TWAW if you are an organisation wishing to apply EA exceptions.

Yes it is possible not to agree that TWAW if there is a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim (ensuring trans women are not given an unfair advantage in women's sport)

No it is not possible not to agree TWAW if you simply don't like the idea of trans women being in female spaces.

But we don’t want trans women in female spaces because we don’t agree that they’re women. They’re trans women.
It is perfectly possible to follow that line of reasoning,daimbars, what do you find so difficult?

I find that difficult because the law (GRA) legally recognises them as women so you are effectively breaking the law.

No it is not possible not to agree TWAW if you simply don't like the idea of trans women being in female spaces.

Why not exactly?

Forget about the law - it is an ass.

Why would a woman's crochet group not just want it to be women only?

Why would a woman's crochet group not just want it to be women only?

What legitimate reason would they have for excluding a trans woman? Apart from prejudice?

And should that same women's crochet group be able to exclude gay women as they want it to be straight women only?