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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Feminism: chat

Original poster

Is it possible not to agree thatTWAW

306 replies

BertrandRussell · 12/07/2018 18:57

ans not be transphobic? Because I think transwomen are transwomen and deserve all the rights and protections of the law, and should to live their lives peacefully, unharnessed and using any names or pronouns they wish. But I don't think they are actually, literally women. Incidentally, neither does the only transperaon I know well enough who is old enough to ask. If thinking that makes me transphobic is she transphobic too?

OP posts:
Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 13/07/2018 14:43

Ah, daim, what exactly are you about, then?
You’re seriously on board with lady penis, but as a lesbian it’s not for you??

The most fantastic effect of this whole mess is that when you describe yourself as a lesbian, or a gay woman, I have no idea whether you actually have male anatomy or not...
That’s a bit of a head fuck, really.

daimbars · 13/07/2018 15:07

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar I wouldn't describe myself as being seriously on board with lady penis. It's not something I've given any thought seeing as I'm a female married to another female but for some reason I keep getting hounded about it Confused

daimbars · 13/07/2018 15:21

Don't be disingenuous - you've had it on here only to show you examples of the sort of crap lesbians have to put up with in the twittersphere

But I am on Twitter and I am a lesbian and I never get this crap from trans people. A TRA posting a Twitter update is not personally hounding me.

GC feminists hijacking my thread in Chat when it's not even posted in FWR is deliberately targeting and hounding me.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 13/07/2018 15:25

I’m not hounding you, this thread is the first I’ve heard of it.
But why are you so insistent that trans women are women; do you see them as women with a deformity, or something?
You’ve admitted that as a lesbian you wouldn’t see a male bodied person as a potential sexual partner - even though you insist they are women pure and simple.
Isn’t that transphobic, as decreed by the thought police?

StroppyWoman · 13/07/2018 15:27

I can't grasp the TWAW position; it's obviously a fallacy that male people are women.

However, if it's more "transwomen have every right to live their lives as women and we'll all treat them that way" that seems absolutely reasonable. Why would I tie myself in knots about how people want to live their lives?
It's like gay marriage or abortion - not compulsory for people to have them, but are available to those who need it.

I just can't square the idea of wanting to live as a women and wanting to have the safe spaces of women and girls dismantled. TRA demands scare me.

Aside - I really enjoy the cut and thrust of debate here. Thanks, everyone

daimbars · 13/07/2018 15:32

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar I don't think it's transphobic. I haven't had a relationship with a black woman, that doesn't make me a racist.

I don't see trans women as having a deformity, I see them with as women born with male anatomy.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 13/07/2018 15:34

But it’s the demand to be in women’s spaces that propelled the whole thing into the public consciousness, isn’t it?
Most people couldn’t give a toss how other people go about their business on a daily basis or what their beliefs are.
Most people hadn’t given a thought to people living as the opposite sex until that wasn’t enough for them - they had to have it publicly acknowledged and enshrined in law that they don’t just live as women, they are women.
Hardly anyone bloody cared until this.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 13/07/2018 15:36

If you don’t see a woman with a penis (and it’s you who insist they’re women) as a potential sexual partner then you consider the penis to be a deformity.

daimbars · 13/07/2018 15:39

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar it wouldn't be my place to describe another person's genitals as a deformity but I know that's how my trans friend at school felt about hers.

titchy · 13/07/2018 15:40

But I am on Twitter and I am a lesbian and I never get this crap from trans people.

But lots do...

Waddlelikeapenguin · 13/07/2018 15:40

daimbars
I find that difficult because the law (GRA) legally recognises them as women so you are effectively breaking the law.

With our thoughts?!? Is there special thought police or do the regular officers have to add this to their job description?

titchy · 13/07/2018 15:42

And you can't opt out of the debate by saying 'Oh I'm married I dont look at anyone as a potential sexual partner anymore'.

ADastardlyThing · 13/07/2018 15:50

I see them with as women but only when it suits me born with male anatomy.

You missed a few words out there daim, fixed for you.

daimbars · 13/07/2018 16:13

What I don't get is surely it's in the best long term interests of women to accept TWAW?

Accept them now and we might have to share the occasional toilet or crochet club.

Reject them now leading to a fear and humiliation about coming out as trans... and these repressed individuals end up marrying our daughters.

Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar · 13/07/2018 16:16

End up marrying our daughters?? You don’t really think rejecting the notion that they are actual women will have them all climbing back in the closet, do you?!
No. Of course you bloody don’t.
So stop it.

Cooroo · 13/07/2018 16:20

No, a phenomenon is just a 'thing'. I can accept the phenomenon of having gender dysphoria, but that doesn't mean TWAW.

UpstartCrow · 13/07/2018 16:23

Are those the only 2 options?

daimbars · 13/07/2018 16:23

I dunno Iamagreyhoundhearmeroar I considered marrying a man I wasn't in love with because society rejected my sexuality. Being trans is a lot less socially acceptable than being gay. There's some pretty forceful anti-trans rhetoric around at the moment.

UpstartCrow · 13/07/2018 16:26

Perhaps that's because anything that doesn't 110% support trans ideology seems anti to the people who support it.

For example there's nothing to stop trans people being in happy relationships with each other, is there?

daimbars · 13/07/2018 16:28

UpstartCrow you mean the third space option?

I can't see that working in every situation as it would mean trans women sharing the space with trans men - which wouldn't work if the aim is for sex segregation, but I agree the more gender neutral facilities available the better.

It's also such a tiny proportion of the population it affects it isn't worth the investment IMO.

Case by case basis seems much simpler.

Pratchet · 13/07/2018 16:33

Make the men's mixed sex and keep the women's sex specific! Works for everyone except people who hate women and want to harm them.

Original poster
BertrandRussell · 13/07/2018 16:49

"There's some pretty forceful anti-trans rhetoric around at the moment."

Could you link to some?

OP posts:
daimbars · 13/07/2018 17:04

BertrandRussell

Man Friday, the Pride Protests, websites dedicated to peak transing, 99% of the threads on FWR - all anti trans rhetoric.

I could link to them all but it would fill the entire thread.

UpstartCrow · 13/07/2018 17:06

Well there you go assuming the third space can only be for trans people,whereas we have repeatedly said it could be used by anyone who is comfortable with using a unisex space.

daimbars · 13/07/2018 17:10

Propose it to your MP then UpstartCrow

  • I'm not strongly for or against it but it sounds very expensive and i would much rather see the money go to improving existing facilities for women and girls.