Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Snappity
Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference
Oh come on - statistics that aren't accurate are not only useless but dangerous. Sex is a relevant factor in violent crime and this is an objective measure. I do not have a clue what point you are trying to make.

You know Snappity your outright refusal to engage to try to find ANY common ground or mutually understood terms, no matter how hard your ideological opponents try reflects really badly on you.

You ask what relevance SEX has wrt fitting rooms?
The answer is that fitting rooms have always been segregated by sex.
Because the sexes have different bodies and fitting rooms involve undressing those bodies.
And because the sexes are so physically different that they demand privacy from one another.

It is so obvious to readers that you refuse to engage with facts about sex because you know that to answer those questions dismantles your whole position. And that is why we continue to ask these questions.

Sex exists.
Females exist.
Males are physically, reproductively, biologically different to females.

Females have the right to be recognised as the sex they are.
Females have the right to boundaries around themselves.
Those boundaries will exclude males.

Gender has no relevance to any of those statements.
It exists only to make the case that female existence and recognition of the female sex should be denied so that female boundaries can be breached.

No wonder you don't want to engage on the matter of sex.

We are keeping our boundaries, pal.

If a transwoman had an entirely masculine presentation then you wouldn’t be able to identify their gender identity as feminine would you? A transwoman can still be identified as biologically male 99% of the time as they need surgical intervention and hormones to read as biologically female... You don’t read someone as female or male based on how they feel inside...

Who told you trans people are unsafe in mens spaces? Gay men have sex in mens spaces. It doesn't get much safer than that.

Women are more vulnerable. Why do we have to give up our spaces?

Sorry if it's already been mentioned (I've not read the whole thread) but the curse t feature in the Economist is a good mix of pieces by different authors. www.economist.com/open-future/2018/06/29/transgender-identities-a-series-of-invited-essays

Snappity also if gender identity, the feeling of gender is innate and internal, how can it be learned? If it's innate, it's just there. If it's learned then it's part of external reality, and it is superimposed on the sexed subject. Also if infants have to learn 'gender identity' why are there phallic prostheses on the market aimed at children as young as 3 or 4, which are supposedly intended to allow them to express their 'innate' (therefore not learned) gender identity?

what are they supposed to do when they need a wee

These are not glib or stupid questions, they are important to discuss!

I think the answer is ‘what women did’ which is lobby for spaces for themselves. Lobby for an end to gendered expectations which are the cause of the violence. Many GC women would be right with them if they did.

The problem is that what is being lobbied for is reinforcing of gender stereotypes and a weakening of sex based protections which weakens protections from oppression for women.

(And also weakens protections for transpeople too since sex is fundamental to trans status, though this is not strictly an issue for feminists)

If they had not been lobbying for weakening of sex based protections then they would not be finding they are less and less welcome in women’s spaces TBH.

I wouldn't personally feel threatened by a trans woman using the ladies'. But I'd feel bad for them if they had to go into the men's in women's clothes - that sounds risky, given what we know about toxic masculinity.

Thing is, not all Trans women DO wear women's clothes. that is the point.

So, if faced with a trans woman in a ladies toilet - how do you know whether they are
a - post op
b - pre op
c - there because they are using women's clothes to gain access in order to find someone to attack

???

I sure as hell don't know, if you can shed a light on how women tell than that would be great.

Also, with males in female toilets, you are automatically excluding women who for religious reasons cannot now use those toilets. I mean, wowsers, what a result eh? For the racists I mean.

Hi Apple Cider

You say: I wouldn't personally feel threatened by a trans woman using the ladies'. But I'd feel bad for them if they had to go into the men's in women's clothes - that sounds risky, given what we know about toxic masculinity.

At least two issues with this
(1) When a feminine man feels threatened in spaces occupied by members of their own sex, then we need to make those risky spaces safer for them, surely? Instead we fail to address the root cause of their concerns - fear of verbal abuse and attack, real or imagined. I'm sure that a lot of men would have no problem with a transwomen standing beside them at the urinals for one very good reason - transwomen are men. But no, instead of addressing the issue, we find it expedient to promote a fiction that transwomen are women.

(2) You might have no qualms about sharing a space with the sterotypical timid and unobstrusive post-operative transexual. You might feel different about challenging the chap hovering around the hand-dryer, with a crumpled suit, five o'clock shadow, no wig and a slash of lipstick. And he's left the seat up! (True story).

You ask what relevance SEX has wrt fitting rooms?

No. I questioned the relevance of the aspects of sex you choose to highlight have something like a changing room.

Snappity Also if gender not sex is paramount aren't you being rather sweeping about men vs women. If your position were to be upheld, why would a transwoman be 'safer'/'more at home' in a space coded as 'female'? For all you know on the day/time/place in question the 'women' in the space labelled 'women' might all be innately male and therefore dangerous. Conversely if there is a corresponding space coded 'male' it's entirely theoretically possible that the 'men' in that space on that day/time are predominantly 'female', but again because of their inability to access their innate gender just don't know it. Since you assume that all of us have gendered identity, those of us on here who deny it presumably just aren't in touch enough with our feelings? Then it follows that we may enter the 'wrong' spaces for our gender. Although you don't really think that do you? Because it's sexed women whose spaces you are trying to invade and you're assuming that all women who are 'sexed women' and don't disavow it must be innately female.
It's a double-standard 'gender identity' can't be questioned or extrapolated from particular material factors if a trans person asserts it but it can be imposed independently when it comes to 'sexed women'.

You might have no qualms about sharing a space with the sterotypical timid and unobstrusive post-operative transexual. You might feel different about challenging the chap hovering around the hand-dryer, with a crumpled suit, five o'clock shadow, no wig and a slash of lipstick. And he's left the seat up!

We all have problems with those types. That at least is common ground,, I think.

Snappity also what about GNC people where do they fit into all this? If we take them into account then unisex spaces are the only solution, then we have a problem both for women and for trans people. It becomes a safe space for no one.

Snappity Also if gender not sex is paramount aren't you being rather sweeping about men vs women. If your position were to be upheld, why would a transwoman be 'safer'/'more at home' in a space coded as 'female'? For all you know on the day/time/place in question the 'women' in the space labelled 'women' might all be innately male and therefore dangerous. Conversely if there is a corresponding space coded 'male' it's entirely theoretically possible that the 'men' in that space on that day/time are predominantly 'female', but again because of their inability to access their innate gender just don't know it. Since you assume that all of us have gendered identity, those of us on here who deny it presumably just aren't in touch enough with our feelings? Then it follows that we may enter the 'wrong' spaces for our gender. Although you don't really think that do you? Because it's sexed women whose spaces you are trying to invade and you're assuming that all women who are 'sexed women' and don't disavow it must be innately female.
It's a double-standard 'gender identity' can't be questioned or extrapolated from particular material factors if a trans person asserts it but it can be imposed independently when it comes to 'sexed women'.

There is a fair point in there but trans people are still a minority

We all have problems with those types. That at least is common ground,, I think.

Can you explain what you mean by this?

GC women don’t ‘have problems with those types’... GC women have problems with laws that allow any type of male to be considered legally female based on their gender identity.

And transsexuals may be a minority but the transgender umbrella pretty much includes all people...

I felt threatened by my siblings ex due to their behaviour.

Whether YOU feel fine with it is irrelevant.

It would make me feel less safe and think twice about being in certain situations. I'm already very anxious about HCPs and medical settings.

That's a problem if a significant number of women feel like that. How can you expect / demand acceptance under those conditions?

I questioned the relevance of the aspects of sex you choose to highlight have something like a changing room.

The entirety of sex is the relevance.

Characteristics are how we determine sex.
Sex is how you determine which groups share tangible commonality.
Commonality is the basis of segregating shared areas.

Females have no tangible commonality with transwomen because they are opposite sex groups.

What relevance do you think 'gender' has, and can it have any relevance to anything, when it can't even be explained or defined without reference to the sex based terms you won't look at upthread?

How you can hold a conversation about gender without explaining what you mean by it?

Okay, thanks to people that answered my questions. And thanks for not flaming me for not being sure of my terminology or knowing much about this subject matter. All food for thought.

It's good to hear about different people's experiences.

I've only met a couple of trans women and they were both very sweet and non threatening. I know that's not exactly scientific or a sound basis for sweeping legal changes... but I suppose it also makes me wonder why there's a suspicion that trans women are assuming a feminine gender identity for personal gain or to be predatory.

FWIW, in my experience men are perfectly capable of being entitled and predatory without going to so much trouble!

We all have problems with those types.

Your whole argument is based on flipping stereotypes isn't it?!!!!

Wow just wow at that comment.

'Those types'

Talk about missing the point.

it also makes me wonder why there's a suspicion that trans women are assuming a feminine gender identity for personal gain or to be predatory.

That is what is being said about what is being said

What is actually being said is that people are mainly worrying about men who will exploit weak laws. If the laws are made based on how someone says they feel inside, which is totally unverifiable, then how do we keep any man out of female spaces?

Pam, was the person in the crumpled suit with the stubble definitely trans? sounds more like some rude random bloke!