Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Snappity
A declaration is not evidence. There is no more evidence for an innate personal gender identity than there is a soul. It is the realm of belief not fact.

vulnerability is based on their ingrained sense of a) who is male and who is female and b) how males may behave in contrast to how women will react. That's gender.

Yes, that is gender but it is factually incorrect to state the vulnerability is based on gender exclusively and nothing to do with sex.

It is topsy turvy in fact because we look for sex markers primarily, hence why transwomen are still seen as threatening in spaces where women feel vulnerable...

If it was based on gender then no-one would ever be a able to spot a transperson and there would be none of this stuff about ‘passing’.

We identify primarily based on sex markers because it is sex that is the primary basis of the vulnerability.

Identify others I mean

snappity

My interpretation of what your saying is that separate provision (open plan changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons) should not be determined by sexed bodies but by identity.

The original basis for segregation was sexed bodies. It would be helpful to hear your case for mixed sex open plan changing rooms, hospital wards and prisons and also your case for segregating according to gender.

Snappity Just to be clear, do you believe that men are on average and across the world more violent and more likely to be perpetrators of sexual crimes than women because they have been socialised into it rather than because of something in their biology (which people are now trying to socialise away)?

Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference.

If it were about gender identity then no transperon would need medical intervention, there would be no such thing as trans in the first place etc etc

One thing that surprises me is how people can’t see this fact.

Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference.

The answer was either yes or no. Not blaming women for statistics.

Yes. No. Simples.

And yes re the stats influencing behaviour... because ‘gender critical’ doesn’t mean ‘doesn’t believe gender exists’

A man will always have a different pyshical presence to a woman.

Someone who is 6'2" and trans will mirror that psychical presence (and therefore threat) regardless of their gender identity.

I am 5'2" and am acutely aware of the impact of psychical presence. I am treated differently to women of bigger stature. I always have been. Its the way I am infantilised, its the way I got IDed for alcohol, its the way I am spoken to in a more negative way.

DH never got it, until I pointed it out. When he saw it, he was shocked at how deep and how subconscious it is.

We all do it.

Appearance is how you assess threat, competition and ally.

The idea that you can simply 'switch it off' is la la land.

We'd all like to be better at being fairer, but there are situations where your emotional brain will always over ride that, and that feeling is particularly acute if its become a matter of safety and survival.

You can talk yourself in circles denying it.

But water is wet.

This has been fascinating but quite academic so excuse me for asking a simplistic practical question:

I get that women sometimes feel safer in women-only environments. I've felt that way myself. But presumably trans women also feel unsafe in a men's toilet/changing room?

I wouldn't personally feel threatened by a trans woman using the ladies'. But I'd feel bad for them if they had to go into the men's in women's clothes - that sounds risky, given what we know about toxic masculinity.

I know that's probably a massive over simplification and honestly I'm not being goady, I'm genuinely trying to understand.

No idea whether that's about sex or gender. I thought I understood the difference but reading this thread I'm not sure anymore!

because gender critical feminists refuse to accept that gender identity exists

The phrase 'refuse to accept' is very telling, for me, it sounds like an edict. I have never identified as a GC feminist, although I am increasingly drawn to the idea. I don't actually necessarily ascribe to patriarchy, I am just as interested in social mechanisms of oppression and inequality. So I can't be represented as 'holding a GC line'. I approach things solely on an analytical basis and I don't accept anything based on a 'feeling'. If someone/anyone could provide a detailed explanation of what is meant 'by gender identity' in this context and not back it up with detailed evidence and authoritative sources I'll entertain it. Otherwise it seems to me I am being asked, actually not that, it is being demanded that I accept it like an article of faith. But in terms of actual evidence astrology is looking more scientific right about now.

Tbh snappity's attempt to claim that reproductive biological functions are a type of 'identity' is the whole problem in a nutshell:

A deranged/disturbed mind in denial and trying to bend the whole world and reality itself to try to make the madness make some sort of sense.

The mad people who are closest to sanity are the ones who know they are mad. That's why the transsexuals who admit they have dysphoria and haven't actually changed sex are the easiest to get along with.

The area that I think is mostbmisunderstood by many transpeople, is :

gender does not mean sex, as sex is simple biological genes. many women suffer mental distress that is associated with the male sex. this distress can cause women to be continually wary of men...cross the road, pull that jumper arou dyou...and can become extreame in physically exposed situation. This innate response is to sex not gender that is reinforced by their experiences

No idea whether that's about sex or gender.

It is about sex and gender.

Being biologically male but dressed in clothes that are feminine and how this visible non-conforming means transwomen are at increased risk of violence from men for visibly displaying that they don’t conform to gendered expectations re their biology...

I think everyone realises trans people are at risk because of the inter-relationship of sex and gender... certainly feminists should do... the question is does this mean transwomen should be included in sex segregated spaces for females.

Just putting this here:

Ultrans Instinct Bria @LifeofBria
Nobody teaches trans girls about our periods. We just get these weird times where we're moody and crampy and sad and we don't know why and just chalk it up to another reason we're not good enough in life.

So, just so you all know: Trans. Girls. Get. Periods.

I absolutely love how much trans girls talking about the reality of their periods pisses transphobes off. It makes you feel so powerful! Really tho it's just that they're so weak. I mean, us existing is enough to upset them, so...

I love how, according to transphobes, a person regularly having all the symptoms of a period, save one, as a result of their natural cycle of hormone fluctuations, somehow doesn't count as a period. Anything to invalidate us. How fragile they are.

It is quite clear that what is going on in our bodies is the exact same thing minus one organ. Afab ppl's periods vary greatly. Some don't even get any real symptoms. Why should trans women's periods not count just because we lack one symptom?

My interpretation of what your saying is that separate provision (open plan changing rooms, hospital wards, prisons) should not be determined by sexed bodies but by identity.

The original basis for segregation was sexed bodies. It would be helpful to hear your case for mixed sex open plan changing rooms, hospital wards and prisons and also your case for segregating according to gender.

Not quite. I am saying that how we perceive single-sex / mixed-sex spaces depends upon our individual gender identity (whether we see ourselves as male or female) and how we assess the sex of individuals in that room - and I don't believe we all make an identical assessment of the sex of others, particularly if someone has mixed sex attributes.

As a society we then have to decide how best to split people between two sexed spaces and what criteria we should use to decide that but I don't think we can have that debate in meaningful terms without recognising that it is a debate about gender because gender is our mechanism for understanding sex when a group of people are sharing a space.

Read the posts on Mumsnet about people wanting to make sure that crimes committed by men aren't recorded as committed by women. That happens because people believe that statistics will influence behaviour. In other words, it isn't about an inate of objective (ie sex) sense of the difference between men and women but a subjective (ie gender) based sense of the likely difference.

I can't speak for other posters but it matters to me because, again, it impacts on material reality. Statistics on crime impact on funding, policy, support for vulnerable groups. We know that violence against women is rising because of data analysis, not intuitive feelings, the figures from the Crown Prosecution Service, for example demonstrate that violence against women tends to fall into particular dominant categories, it is also rising, crime committed by women does not tend to overlap with those committed against them. If those who are sexed male can self-report as someone who would otherwise be identified as sexed female, it skews those statistics. It gives an entirely different picture of reality and those pictures then influence funding and policy here and ultimately elsewhere.

Snappity yes statistics can influence behaviour . Specifically, if crime is misrecorded then the behaviour that is influenced is that of law makers who can not justify sex separation if there is no observed differences between the sexes

gender does not mean sex, as sex is simple biological genes. many women suffer mental distress that is associated with the male sex. this distress can cause women to be continually wary of men...cross the road, pull that jumper arou dyou...and can become extreame in physically exposed situation. This innate response is to sex not gender that is reinforced by their experiences

That's a response based on gender - a learned view of how males are likely to react. If it was based on sex an infant would have the same response as an adult, but they don't. It is learned and that makes it gender.

No, it’s a response based on identification of biological sex...

And medical research statistics...

Once you have identified someone’s sex, at that point you may consider how they may act.

Snappity if a sense of gender is innate, non-verifiable and not open to question by those who observe it, it then relates to a theory of mind that suggests that no-one, including you, can independently prove/disprove its existence or what it may consist of. The only reality becomes the linguistic utterances of the individual making the gender identity claim. In which case it is not possible for you to make the clam you make about babies, as how can you know what their innate sense of anything is?

Thanks Offred, I suppose my point is also: if trans women are unsafe in men's spaces, and yet unwelcome in women's spaces, what are they supposed to do when they need a wee?! It may theoretically be possible to have third sex spaces at some point but that's not the way the world is configured now.

Sorry if I sound glib. I don't mean to be.
I care deeply about women's rights and am passionate about wanting to prevent violence against women. And I also want to be kind and generous to people who are - frankly - more vulnerable than I am.

PS I do understand this isn't all about toilets! Just picking somewhere to start.