Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Okay thanks Offred. I understand that.

Just catching up with this thread and the claim that a a couple of Hollywood films prove the existence of gender identity is the best thing I have read all day.

How can anyone prove the existence of gender identity? How can it be verifiable? It’s just nonsense.

Pam, was the person in the crumpled suit with the stubble definitely trans?

And here lies the problem, how can anyone know? If they say they are trans then they are trans.

Trans is a very broad definition now that goes way beyond the post op transsexuals

Apple I've known a lot of non-threatening transwomen too, I've had a relationship with one. I have stated on other threads I've been to 'trans' clubs, all very safe spaces. I used the loos no problem. I've also been to ones where the trans clientele overlapped with clientele who are more common at fetish clubs and some of the people who presented as 'women' in those settings were rather different. So I don't have a problem sharing a lot of spaces with transmen or transwomen but that's not the issue. The category is now potentially so wide that it covers a vast range of groups. Some of whom can be more benign than others, although to be fair a lot of the 'fetish' groups are quite sweet once you get past the exterior. However others were pretty scary to me and to transwomen.
If you get a self-id situation it really won't be much trouble for a whole range of people to gain access to what are currently single-sex spaces. Also it's not just about direct violence, if you're a voyeur/'peeping Tom' then access to certain spaces will suddenly be easier not harder.
And if men only commit violence when it's easy, how do you account for those who spend months/years grooming victims of various sorts online?
Also what you/I/somebody finds 'sweet' and non-threatening in a social situation may be intimidating to a woman who encounters that person as unknown and in her intimate space. It will also make it impossible for women from certain religious backgrounds to use that space at all. We already have instances of ethnic minority women with breast cancer who've waited until their breasts are literally rotting, because they are too afraid of exposing their bodies to strange male health-care professionals. The only situation I know where this kind of problem was addressed was when I was involved in 'safe ride' and 'taxi services' that were women only, but took men straight/gay/trans if a reliable woman vouched for them, but that's pretty impossible to replicate across a whole range of services with high volume turnovers.

No snappity it is based on sex. it's is based on evidence that one sex commits most of the violence. We know that sex not gender affects propensity to violence.

.Funnily enough, I believe babies can tell male from female. Voice pitch, smell and touch ( the levels of fat make women softer ) .

For me to accept your gender identity, I need a means to recognise it. How can I tell your gender identity?

Thanks Dottie * Okay I think I understand better now what the issue is. It's not that trans women per se are a threat to women's rights, rather a concern that dismantling the categories that some of those rights are predicated on will result in abuses (& generally in making those rights harder to uphold). Have I got that correct?*

Oops didn't mean that to be bold. Not sure what I did there....

speakingwoman: It's reasonable to ask what Catholics believe because if you sign up to be a Catholic you have to accept the authority of the church.
But trans people's beliefs are surely going to be as varied as the beliefs of the rest of us?
Even within Catholicism I've come across quite varied views. I did deliberately choose Christianity for my analogy knowing that's an even wider field. I think a summary of trans-activist points of view could well contain some alternative takes. One could and probably should also mention that some transwomen themselves consider that they are still men. Nonetheless there does seem to be a pretty clear split into two camps so I think some kind of summary is feasible.

Yes, to opening up to abuse re segregated spaces but also protection from discrimination and initiatives to redress imbalances and encourage sex equality too.

Indirect discrimination, which makes up a large proportion of sex discrimination claims is based on shared characteristics.

AWS are designed to redress a sex imbalance in parliament.

Awards for women in industry are designed to redress sex imbalance in business.

Stats currently help up see how these things are working.

Given the numbers of transgender people (virtually everyone re stonewall’s definition) then it really is not scaremongering to say the majority of places reserved for women’s advancement could actually be people with male biology at some point if this stuff comes in and they would be seen as female re the law.

How would we even measure/see sexism anymore? It basically totally obscures the majority of sexism and it does nothing to address rights for trans people because it also obscures the sex part of their material reality so effectively doing away with transphobia too (people are ‘just’ male and female based on stated gender ID).

So Snappity, since you're arguing from the opposite position, do you think there are ways to protect women's rights from being eroded while giving trans people the recognition and rights they want?

Again, a genuine question!! I've been following this argument with confusion and dismay (not just this thread, but this argument in the culture more widely).

I've been listening and thinking about what everyone is saying here about sex and gender and while I (sort of) follow, it feels like you could all argue this stuff endlessly because it's so theoretical/academic.

So, in practical terms, do you 1) agree women's rights (to safe spaces, for example) potentially endangered by trans rights (to self-identify) and 2) do you see any way out of this conundrum?

redtoothbrush: Water is wet. and others making similar points, I think worth reiterating that I'm not talking about compromise, I'm talking about a neutral toned statement of what the opposing positions are. So "Swimmers consider water to be wet. Skaters believe that water is dry." Like TeenTimesTwo is doing.

because it's so theoretical/academic

It's not though. It's whether one thinks women should be put at greater risk. It's whether or not your daughter should risk pregnancy on a Guide trip. It's whether some person with a five o'clock shadow should be able to stick a speculum up your vag when you said you wanted a woman to do it. And on and on and on...

Do not listen to anyone who confuses you with word salad. There is nothing academic about it.

Yeah, I tend to think it’s not particularly academic or theoretical too... It ends up being discussed in an academic and theoretical way because gender identity seems to be undefinable and unverifiable which is one of the reasons it’s not a good thing to replace definable and verifiable sex categories...

Catkind

I don't think it possible to do without bias. It always creeps in. The mental gymnastics it requires are simply cognitive dissonance.

I've spent over 10 years dealing with it and listening to my mother attempt it.

The denial it involves is impossible to avoid. It's that denial part which is the biggest issue out of all of it in my experience. Not the identity, but the power and control over creating this alternative and then trying to change the world around to fit to that, rather than adapting to the world like everyone else.

It can not be separated out.

The ultimate inescapable truth is everyone's experience is based on their sex, even if they are trans. They will only have the trans experience that relates to their sex, not the opposite. You are either one sex or the other. Unless you are intersex which is another entirely different thing again. (Though there has been many attempts at appropriation).

The experience of a female trans person is not the same as a male trans person. And you can't have a trans trans person. (A transwoman who becomes a transman) Nor can a woman be a transwoman.

I have tried many times to cross this bridge. I can't do it and maintain my own sense of self and worth. I wish it were possible. Truly I do.

I do think anyone who tries to tell you different is simply dishonest or in denial.

That's not to say gender isn't important to many, many people. It's just that it does not and can not adequately replace the reality of sex. What defines you as who you are is unique to your personality, but your physical being is a legacy of your genetics from your parents.

The experience of being transgender is unique to the sex you were born. Ironically, you can not define being trans without reference to your sex. It's the elephant in the room.

You either accept this reality or express ideology to deny it one way or another to a varying degree.

I wonder if snappity has considered the possibility that the reason GC stuff doesn’t make sense to them re it being about GC people believing gender doesn’t exist is actually because GC is not believing gender doesn’t exist...

🙄

I wonder if maybe it would be a bit easier to understand if they dropped that preconception...

So, in practical terms, do you 1) agree women's rights (to safe spaces, for example) potentially endangered by trans rights (to self-identify) and 2) do you see any way out of this conundrum?

No, I don't think Self-ID is a danger to women's rights. In most of the situations discussed on Mumsnet the Gender Recognition Act is irrelevant - presently it matters mostly in terms of bureaucratic situations. How often do you use your birth certificate?

Yeah, I tend to think it’s not particularly academic or theoretical too... It ends up being discussed in an academic and theoretical way because gender identity seems to be undefinable and unverifiable which is one of the reasons it’s not a good thing to replace definable and verifiable sex categories...

Completely agree with Offred . Heaven help us if this is genuinely what passes for academia. It’s mostly just empty waffle.

Just a thought in case it's not been said. A woman doesn't have the option to stop being a woman (and therefore vulnerable), but a transwoman has the option to not wear a frock in a toilet. After all jeans and a t-shirt are women's clothes too.

Of course on principle people shouldn't have to dress to minimise risk, but women have been told to do that for a long time and that was ok.

Just a thought in case it's not been said. A woman doesn't have the option to stop being a woman (and therefore vulnerable), but a transwoman has the option to not wear a frock in a toilet. After all jeans and a t-shirt are women's clothes too.

And what does a trans woman do with her breasts and / or vagina?

"And what does a trans woman do with her breasts and / or vagina?"

I cannot answer that question without falling foul of MN talk guidelines.
So I shall simply say that I object, strongly, to the name for my female bodily organs being appropriated by people who are born male, and whatever said person does with their body parts I can guarantee it won't remotely resemble what I do with mine. I can't possibly advise on what to do with an inverted penis as I have never had one, although I hear they need to be dilated and cleaned regularly to avoid closing up and bacterial overgrowth/hairballs. I have no experience with this.
As to what to do with those body parts whilst in a toilet, again, no idea.
The only thing I do with my actual vagina in a toilet is handle my menstruation needs. My breasts don't interfere with my toileting requirements at all. In particular as I always refused to breastfeed in a loo.

We need different words for different things.

It would be terribly helpful if you acknowledged and respected females and how we differ from males.

@BarrackerBarmer, that was a truly offensive post.

Well said Barracker

One may believe surgery changes sex but one can't force others to share that belief