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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

367 replies

catkind · 11/07/2018 13:04

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

OP posts:
Ereshkigal · 12/07/2018 10:55

Yes Paris Lees wasn't mocking women's concerns when Paris said that just as many women are afraid of men "some people are afraid of escalators". Just "making light", I guess.

Offred · 12/07/2018 10:56

Yeah... some do but mocking concerns isn’t really the main mode...

Ereshkigal · 12/07/2018 10:59

The point I was making is that Rat does indeed mock women's concerns. She just dresses it up as something else.

UpstartCrow · 12/07/2018 11:04

Hence the not-as-clever-as-it-sounds caveat 'openly'.

RedToothBrush · 12/07/2018 11:08

not even the kinky cross-dressers, but it ain't cross-dressing if you're simply a woman dressing as a woman.

Will all the 'men' on this thread who dress as men please raise your hand.

raises hand

There is no such thing as dressing as a man or dressing as a woman. Those are gender stereotypes.

Ereshkigal · 12/07/2018 11:09

Good point Red. I missed that.

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 11:19

Which is something the trans-activist position makes it hard to do at all because they want transwomen in the women category not a separate category.

  <strong>Rat:</strong>   'Necessary for rights under the Equality Act. 

I know people say that the protected characteristic of gender reassignment protects them, but it does not. If they are paid less than their male colleagues, for instance, they need to be able to bring a sex discrimination claim as women. Gender reassignment does not help.'

This is an issue if gender becomes primary then sex becomes a meaningless category and so the concept of 'sex discrimination' ceases to exist. Isn't Stonewall lobbying for the category of 'sex' to be replaced with 'gender'?

If gender becomes primary and the argument is that male sexed bodies and female sexed bodies are no longer relevant then the whole concept of gender discrimination has no real meaning either. So a trans women who is discriminated against as a trans woman would not be protected against sex discrimination. And what argument is there remaining to protect any gender in relation to any other? Sex discrimination protects men and women BUT has largely been used to deal with inequalities experienced by the female sex. If it's done away with all women lose out.

TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 12/07/2018 11:20

If you looked at my 'wardrobe' - you would think I was a man. My main footwear is workbooks with crocs and some black plimsolls if I have to go and meet people. I own about 3 dresses which I only ever wear over trousers for work...and the rest is literally jeans, black trousers and t-shirts. I wear fleeces or cagoules when it gets chilly. When I have a work meeting and it is chilly I have a black raincoat. I have one bra which I wear when I absolutely have to (for work). In fact, it looks like I dress up for work purposes as a female whilst dressing as a male for every other purpose...and as I work from home mainly, that is probably 13 days out of 14.

What is my gender identity? Don't have one.

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 11:24

Well my wardrobe pretty much matches Tells except that I have various pairs of DMs and similar. However in regards to the idea of 'cross-dressing' there are garments/accessories that are 'coded' in the culture. Stilettos coded female, mini-skirts coded female, bras coded female, lace of any kind coded female (unless on a dress shirt), lipstick coded female, stockings coded female, suspender belts coded female and the list goes on ….

CoteDAzur · 12/07/2018 11:44

"What I care about is "what will be the outcome if we do this?". Will it be good for women, good for men, good for trans people, bad for women, bad for humanity?"

This is exactly how I think about it, too: What will be the consequences if we say "Any man who puts on makeup and says 'I feel like a woman today'?

"If you send a message out to society that women are more more weak and vulnerable than is proportionate, society will believe it. And women will too. It will set us back so many years."

It is not a made up belief that women are physically weaker than man AND are disadvantaged in some ways. That is why there is such a thing as Women's Sports separate from men's. That is why some schools give girls' scholarships. That is why we talk about women's issues like forced marriages, FGM, honor killings, disproportionately low number of women in STEM, in government, among CEOs.

"... been using the facilities for their chosen gender for all that time. Hospitals and prisons have found a way to accommodate that, so have refuges"

That is because adult human males would have been challenged and told to leave women's shelters, changing rooms, and toilets. They would never have been allowed to compete against women in sports competitions. They would never be elected as women's officers or given women's scholarships. They would not shut down women's events and no-platform women speakers, and their ridiculous opinion that women talking about their biology is bigotry would not have been taken seriously.

"When thinking, "what will actually happen if self-ID comes in?", I came to the conclusion, "not an awful lot"."

If that is the conclusion you came to, I can only assume that you have not listened to women's concerns or if you have listened, not cared one bit.

I suggest that you read the above concerns again, slowly, then reflect on them until the various problematic consequences of not only self-ID but TWAW becomes clearer to you.

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:04

Cote great post, it seems that too much emphasis is on abstractions such as assertions about the nature of gender, what women are rightly concerned about are the practical implications and the possible ramifications going forward. I think if gender becomes recognised as primary then sex as a category will slowly be eroded. Then funding for women's issues/health, support for women in politics/employment, lobbying for women's issues locally and globally will slowly disappear.

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:08

Yes Dottie... and with it will go all other PC which are dependent on sex; trans and sexuality...

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:12

"been using the facilities for their chosen gender for all that time. Hospitals and prisons have found a way to accommodate that, so have refuges"

This is clearly not the case, for example in Canada two women in a refuge were uncomfortable sharing with a transwoman who retained 'male' genitalia, as they had been victims of physical/sexual assault and found this 'triggering'. It was not possible to offer either these women or the transwoman another room because there are not enough rooms available. The two women protested publicly and had to leave the refuge.

"While everyone is just looking for a safe place to stay, it’s not as easy as it sounds. NOW Canada says its shelters don’t have enough space to allow transgender clients to have their own room and there are no shelters in the Okanagan designated specifically for transgender people."
globalnews.ca/news/3300518/concerns-over-transgender-client-at-okanagan-shelter/

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:12

I don’t have a gender identity either and I find it offensive to suggest that clothes are either masculine or feminine.

Clothes may be cut to fit female bodies or male bodies and there is a significant overlap between them but I’ll likely never fit in trousers cut for men because of my waist/hip ratio even though my height would not be prohibitive... I often struggle to find women’s trousers that fit properly a size it is... constantly pulling them up because if they fit my hips they are too loose around the waist and too baggy in the legs...

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:13

And no fecking pockets...

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:15

Offred sorry what does PC stand for in this context?

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:16

Unless I have my breasts surgically removed it is also likely I will struggle with dresses too because of my bust.

Re standard sizes I am an 18 in the bust a 10 in the waist and a 14 in the hips so clothes are hard...

14 women’s trousers, large men’s T-shirts are the best fit...

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:17

Protected characteristics

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:21

^all that has fuck all to do with my gender identity, nor does the fact I choose clothes to accommodate my disability...

I have a female body and clothes/shoes are affected by my disability so that’s the main criteria influencing my selection of clothes, then what clothes I choose to wear each day is influenced by the conditions of the day and the impression I feel it is expediant to give.

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:21

Offred I don't think clothes are essentially anything either, which is why I said 'coded' and this relates to cultural perceptions of what is gender appropriate. At one point in the 1800s in the US wearing trousers was illegal for women

As it was in France:

'A 200-year-old law forbidding women to wear trousers in Paris has finally been revoked. On January 31, Najat Vallaud-Belkacem, France's minister of women's rights, made it officially impossible to arrest a woman for wearing trousers in the French capital.'
3 Feb 2013
Women in Paris finally allowed to wear trousers - Telegraph
www.telegraph.co.uk/.../Women-in-Paris-finally-allowed-to-wear-trousers.html

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:24

Yy Dottie I am agreeing with you two really...

I’m annoyed that this whole thing is now making clothes women wear into even more of a thing people read as an expression of ‘gender identity’.

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:26

Now we not only have to watch out for giving an impression we are accepting the feminine gender role based on what we wear but we also have to watch out for giving the impression we are trans...

Offred · 12/07/2018 12:26

It’s just more of the ‘what was she wearing?’ stuff IMO...

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:27

But it does seem that ideas of gender and related forms of gender expression have become fairly binary. I grow up at a time when many women had cropped hair, no make-up and many men wore eye-shadow/mascara etc but not it seems that I would be perceived as gender non-conforming. At the time it was an expression of the rejection of rigid gender roles. In many ways this raises other issues that I am struggling with, I find some of the rhetoric around gender and its primacy ultra-conservative and restrictive. And don't get me started on pink brain/blue brain.

Dottierichardson · 12/07/2018 12:30

'not' should be 'now'. I want a climate in which the categories of what it is to be masculine and what it is to be feminine can be questioned and options/roles/possibilities for each expanded not reified at a particular historical point in time.