Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Gender Critical people believe that gender is constructed - there is no such thing as an internal female or men identity. Gender is something that is imposed externally on us by societal norms. People may have values/preferences that are inconguerent with the gender that is imposed on them but this does not mean that they are a different gender. On the other hand they believe that biological sex is important. It is important NOT because it determines attitudes, behaviour, how people want to present themselves but because it determines how society treats us, because the physical differences between men and women determine our place in society. The importance of biology is not a normative statement in this view but a positive one

But if you go to Saudi Arabia a single sex space has a much more expensive meaning than in the UK. In contrast, in France and Belgium women pass men standing at urinals in order to reach the door with a "woman" sign. One of the huge problems in the discussions here is that gender critical feminists don't, in fact, strip out gender.

Sorry to derail there's a thread questioning the right of lesbians to protest at Pride, have put in my penny's worth, anyone else want to add something?

There are umpteen threads here inviting believers of the trans position (I don't know how to refer to this group without falling foul of guidelines) to define terms so that mutual understanding can be reached, and they always decline or obfuscate.

Because trans people aren't hung up on definitions like that. Their world view is much more pragmatic.

sorry snappity can you rephrase I literally cannot understand the link between your comments about Saudi arabia and the paragraph of mine you quoted

But if you go to Saudi Arabia a single sex space has a much more expensive meaning than in the UK. In contrast, in France and Belgium women pass men standing at urinals in order to reach the door with a "woman" sign. One of the huge problems in the discussions here is that gender critical feminists don't, in fact, strip out gender.

This is great stuff. I happen to disagree with Snappity's broad position but it is really good to see a reasoned dissenting viewpoint on here.

sorry snappity can you rephrase I literally cannot understand the link between your comments about Saudi arabia and the paragraph of mine you quoted

Because I believe that gender critical feminists think that they strip out gender but I don't think that they actually do so.

For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women. So, if a gender critical view is truly being expressed, then it should never use feelings or statistics - statistics again are all about gender and how society interprets.

Either you present biased anti-trans info, without any trans peoples perspectives or opinions taken into account........... or you present something informative and backed up by majority opinion of experts and information and stats NOT plucked from wordpress blogs..... but you'll find it difficult to find reliable information or reputable organisations against trans rights.

Yes, I was coming on to say it is going to be very hard to find something that people who are already on the other side will see as neutral because part of taking that side is ‘there is only one right way to think’ and even considering the ‘other side’ or the points of disagreement = transphobia...

Yes Offred, and even TeenTimesTwo's valiant attempt to pithily explain the two positions falls down slightly because it uses biased language to explain, particularly, the pro-trans position.

I tried to be as neutral as I could be dancing . Would you like to quote some bits and rephrase them more neutrally?

Read the thread about third spaces.

There is a long section on "consent" to access spaces and how there is an expectation of what "ladies" on a door means. That's gender viewpoints, not sex.

It is one of the things that makes it miserable for everyone IMO. If just listening to points of view becomes hateful and makes you a hateful person then society becomes extremely divided and it will divide along existing power lines.

TBF to the transactivist side this is not something unique to them IMO, it’s become the way of doing things in the mainstream... it has polarised everything.

Because trans people aren't hung up on definitions like that. Their world view is much more pragmatic.

I think you misunderstand the meaning of the word pragmatic. Below is the dictionary definition of the word.

pragmatic
praɡˈmatɪk/Submit
adjective
dealing with things sensibly and realistically in a way that is based on practical rather than theoretical considerations.

Recognising sexed bodies and their different functions and allocating spaces and services according to the needs of those bodies is practical.

Arguing that a penis is female etc... to my mind absolutely falls into the theoretical category.

Snappity now I see, so GC feminists don't strip out gender but we argue that is externally imposed, society puts people in girl and boy boxes. Nobody's mind/soul/essence is wholely male or female

Snappity now I see, so GC feminists don't strip out gender but we argue that is externally imposed, society puts people in girl and boy boxes. Nobody's mind/soul/essence is wholely male or female

I don't have an effing clue what a gender critical viewpoint really looks like because most of the views on here rely on gender.

Even the supposed gender critical definition of women isn't because it is built on what women are believed to feel comfortable together - gender.

Recognising sexed bodies and their different functions and allocating spaces and services according to the needs of those bodies is practical.

Suggesting that the different sexes need different functions and services is mostly about gender. There are exceptions like maternity provision - that is sex - but suggesting that changing rooms should be sexed is an argument based on gender, not sex, because the action of changing is identical for both sexes.

Well yes, because ‘gender critical’ does not mean ‘people who think gender doesn’t exist’ I know that the activists say that’s what it means but it’s not.

It means critical of gender. It acknowledges gender exists but it is critical of it’s value as a system around which to organisation society.

Also gender critical does not necessarily mean you are a radical feminist although radical feminists are deeply critical of gender.

This is rather like looking for a neutral view on whether the earth is flat or round.

For instance, where do you think the middle ground might be in between women saying we have a right to choose our sexual partners vs men saying we don't ?

Changing rooms etc is about the physical vulnerability of women - sex not gender

For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women.

I feel vulnerable when out and about because of the men that might attack and penetrate me without my permission; not because I feel like I should be home in the kitchen doing some ironing. And knowing that if it did happen, and it went to court, and they were found guilty, the judge would probably deem the future of the person of the opposite sex more important than the potential threat to other members of the same sex as me going forward.

Of course it is about one sex being less important in society than another, not about the gender roles that people take on.

The reason women feel vulnerable is about both sex and gender - physical vulnerability and gendered socialisation which increases likelihood of coming to harm.

I think TeenTimesTwo's summary was beautifully clear, and I'm actually going to use it as a basis for discussions with my DDs.

yes offred

and the question of separating changing rooms is to do with

1. norms of modesty etc which are imposed on women more
2. societal norms that mean that men feel entitled to female bodies
3. difference in physical strength between men and women