Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

[catkind]

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

Snappity it would probably help the OP more if you answered her question i.e. did an equivalent descriptor to teens of the two "approaches" rather than criticising teens one.... In fact it would probably help all of us.... including me!.

Teen did not, in my opinion, do a good job at all because she (I think) spoke about validation which is a pejorative term used by gender critical feminists.

And I can't express the gender critical viewpoint because for me it is self-contradictory and intellectually-deficient. I understand that there are genuine feelings on that side which deserve respect but I don't think that the gender critical perspective is an helpful framework to do that.

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance

gender dysphoria is "a condition characterized by an individual's distress when he or she is forced to present themselves in accordance with their natal sex."

Some might argue the middle line is that there is a very small number of people who suffer from a medical condition which causes psychological distress around their biology, and they might be better living a life more commonly associated with their opposite sex. In this case, they might benefit from having surgery to releave that. These people need protects to enable them to live relatively normal lives, but this still does not change their sex biologically (though they might have documentation that says otherwise, to help them tackle prejudice).

That statement is well-meaning and not intended to be unkind but it is not neutral either as it starts from a premise of othering transsexuals instead of treating them as inherently normal too.

It's not 'inherently normal' to feel that your body is horribly wrong.

it starts from a premise of othering transsexuals instead of treating them as inherently normal too.

It is not healthy or normal to want to have dangerous/damaging medicine and surgery to your healthy body because you can't live with yourself as you naturally are.

That's a very dangerous position to take.

Although plastic surgeons are happy for people to think of it as normal. Ker-ching!

Go on Snappity say it, you know you want to. Transwomen are women

X post orchid

As I say, there is no neutral position. I never said that statement was neutral.

I do not think it possible to be neutral.

Its ripped my family apart because my mother believed she could be neutral but in doing so harmed me because she wasn't neutral and inadvertantly always put gender before sex.

I found it helpful to focus on the recommended changes to existing legislation rather than the outcomes desired by Trans people, otherwise I couldn't find a coherent 'wish list'.

For instance, the Trans lobbyists want both a movement away from the medicalised model of trans AND shorter waiting lists for medical treatment, along with specially trained medical professionals to prescribe hormones during the wait.

No, our focus has to be on the Government's proposals rather than the mish-mash of contradictory demands from the trans lobby.

There are 35 recommendations coming from the Parliamentary Committee for Women and Equality. As an example, let's take the one that recommends lowering the age for Gender Recognition to 16 years.

The Trans Lobby would prefer the inclusion of under 16s, based on anguished case studies of unhappy children and teens. The opposing lobby promotes a 'wait and see' approach, based on evidence from detransitioners and those who had lucky escapes. Only one of those sides was listened to - but that's another story.

We can make a case around why we think the government is wrong to pursue the proposal. It's a waste of energy grappling with the Trans Lobby's proposals to medicate children because, as far as I can see, that's not even on the table.

I wish I could find a neutral list and I wish I had the intellectual capacity or time to probe the 34 other recommendations - because that's where the source of the dispute lies.

In this particular sphere, I oppose the government and the parliamentary sub committee. I defend the right of trans people to state their case to the government, but I also want the right to be heard and to make a different, evidence-based case.

Steps off soap box.

So gender critical feminists are not critical of the concept of gender and how it can be used to other and oppress but we think a gender free world is a) possible and b) would be better

Stonewall is ok, you'd be better speaking with actual trans orgs though, if you intend to find balance between that and the gender critical mob.

A lot of the gender critical stuff is circular arguments about etymology than rather anything based in the reality of experiences that includes trans experiences.

A lot of the framing is done by the gender-crit, and contains infinite strawmans about what trans people are actually fighting for.

Most trans orgs mission is to reduce bullying and abuse.
But their time is spent countering false narratives.

www.scottishtrans.org/trans-rights/

transequality.org/know-your-rights

www.buzzfeed.com/morganmpage/why-are-some-feminists-in-the-uk-freaking-out-about-trans?utm_term=.qur2Nm7ALK#.sjqwPzLQ7n

Snappity Would you care to quote some phrases / sentences I used and rewrite them in a more neutral way?

So for example I wrote:
Transwomen want access to female spaces to validate their feelings that they are women.

You take exception to the term 'validate'.

Would you prefer: Transwomen want access to female spaces because they believe that their feelings that they are women overrides biology when it comes to separated spaces.

But excluding trans women is a gender-based harm so why do gender critical feminists not reject that harm too?

No, that’s inverting the whole situation. The lobbying is for people with a feminine gender identity but male biology to be included in a totally different system based on female sex.

Gender is not the same as sex. Someone’s gender identity does not need to match their sex but sexism sanctions people who do not conform with gendered expectations of various kinds.

Arguments for inclusion in sex categories should be about evidence the sex categories need to be adjusted. An argument that some people’s gender identity means they find it difficult/impossible or are uncomfortable with fulfilling the gendered expectations of society or they want to fulfill the expectations placed on the opposite sex is an issue with gendered expectations, it has nothing to do with sex (apart from sexism attributing certain things to masculine/feminine) and it certainly does not provide any evidence that sex categories should be or need to be adjusted.

It is good evidence that gendered expectations need to be adjusted.

The harm is the gendered expectations not the sex categories.

Also, when adjusting sex categories you need to consider the whole of society because everyone in society has a sex and is therefore affected by changes to sex based rights, terms etc

Since transwomen continue to have male biology then you need to demonstrate;

A. Excluding them from the male sex category without distinguishing that they are transwomen doesn’t harm them.

B. Including them in the female sex category doesn’t harm females or transwomen.

C. Not including them in the female sex category causes them harm and that if it can be proven, there isn’t another way of protecting them from this harm.

Would you prefer: Transwomen want access to female spaces because they believe that their feelings that they are women overrides biology when it comes to separated spaces.

Much better, thank you but the correct verso is "Trans women want access to female spaces because they are women and their need for such spaces is undifferentiated to any other woman's need"

Point B. is particularly relevant given the transman who died as a direct result of negligent healthcare due in part to their biology being ignored.

‘Correct verso’ 🙄 no, that’s both factually incorrect and ideologically driven... a neutral description wouldn’t make these claims re beliefs as though they are facts.

Well, points A and B

No, that’s inverting the whole situation. The lobbying is for people with a feminine gender identity but male biology to be included in a totally different system based on female sex.

The harm to someone comes if they are not included in the space which matches their gender identity. That applies to everyone, trans, intersex.. everyone. So, if we are talking about harm or feeling vulnerable or unsafe that is a statement about gender identity.

Not everyone has a gender identity...

What harm (credible evidence) comes to people who don’t get included in sex segregated spaces based on gender identity?

Point B. is particularly relevant given the transman who died as a direct result of negligent healthcare due in part to their biology being ignored.

Healthcare needs depend on biological sex (at the time). That's very different to social spaces which are all about gender.

It's also why competitive sport isn't generally a major area of contention because most people recognise that it is about physiology, not gender, and in particular exposure to testosterone.

Wow lots of food for thought here. On a brief flick through there are lots of points I want to engage with. However kids' bedtime and footie calls.
For now I'll just say bravo TeenTimesTwo, that looks like an excellent starting point.
Anyway just wanted to check in and say I'm reading with interest and GOAL!!!!!!

And no, that a lot of people do not feel excluded by sex based segregation and do not feel uncomfortable with their sexed body is not evidence that everyone has a gender identity...

That's very different to social spaces which are all about gender

What exactly do you consider to be a social space snappity?

Most spaces that are separated by sex I wouldn't regard as social spaces.