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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Looking for a neutral summary on trans issues

367 replies

catkind · 11/07/2018 13:04

I won't pretend I don't hold strong (GC) views myself, but I would find it really useful to have a neutral summary of the positions both sides (and subcamps) are taking. I want to be able to explain to friends who have no idea about trans politics what this is about and what the disagreements are, in terms that friends who are on the transactivist side of the debate won't disagree with. Anyone got any good links for me?

OP posts:
GardenGeek · 11/07/2018 17:13

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Snappity · 11/07/2018 17:17

and the question of separating changing rooms is to do with
1) norms of modesty etc which are imposed on women more
2) societal norms that mean that men feel entitled to female bodies
3) difference in physical strength between men and women

All gender, the first two obviously so, and the third because physical strength has no impact on the activity of changing but only about how women feel in the space which is a statement about gender.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/07/2018 17:19

Where differences of opinion are irreconcilable, you need to go back to where there exists common ground.
Are humans mammals
Are mammals sexually dimorphic
What are the objective characteristics of male and female in our species
What is a female reproductive system
How do humans reproduce

And then you agree mutually understood terms for these concepts.
What do we name female children
What do we name female adults
What do we name male children
What do we name male adults

Is this something that my gender supporting peers would engage with?

Offred · 11/07/2018 17:22

Errr no, the third one is about knowing that your sex makes you more vulnerable to the other sex... that’s not a feeling, that’s knowledge... of reality... the reality of biological sex...

Anyway, gender critical does not mean believing gender doesn’t exist. Getting rid of gender based harms involves criticising gender as a system doesn’t it?

speakingwoman · 11/07/2018 17:25

Hi OP,

It's reasonable to ask what Catholics believe because if you sign up to be a Catholic you have to accept the authority of the church.

But trans people's beliefs are surely going to be as varied as the beliefs of the rest of us?

dolorsit · 11/07/2018 17:27

I don't have an effing clue what a gender critical viewpoint really looks like because most of the views on here rely on gender.

To be honest I don't even know what a gender critical feminist really is. I came to feminism before the UK starting using the word "gender" instead of the word "sex"

Feminists were critical of the way the female sex were treated because of their sex. We used to be to use the word "woman" because it meant adult human female. That's all it meant.

I've never had angst over using the toilet regardless of how it was labelled "woman" "ladies" (which I am not) or "little princess room" (ok I rolled my eyes at that and explained to my 3yr old that she shouldn't use the "little pirates" room despite being dressed as one.)

However having lived in France and having been spied on in their unisex toilets I do appreciate having a single sex environment to do my business. Incidentally the British men were most perturbed at females walking past them whilst they used the urinals.

I don't understand where the hell gender comes into. I don't know what a "woman" gender is. Are you using the word gender to mean sex?

Or do you mean because feminists use class analysis eg females need protection due to male violence they are talking about gender?

Snappity · 11/07/2018 17:29

Is this something that my gender supporting peers would engage with?

No, because you have not shown relevance. The truth is that someone is comfortable in a space feels comfortable if his/her gender identity matches the sex of all those in the space - and the greater the dissonance between the two, the less comfortable people are - but it is impossible to have that discussion because gender critical feminists refuse to accept that gender identity exists.

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2018 17:34

Snappity
Gender as a social construct defines, limits and oppresses women. It is not a natural, innate, fixed quality. And yes on occasion, as in single sex spaces it can protect women. However it should not be the priority to dismantle those few and far between protections leaving the rest of the unequal power balance intact. That only serves to diminish women's rights. They are actually single SEX spaces not single GENDER spaces,which is what the debate is about.
A social construct is real not theoretical

Snappity · 11/07/2018 17:39

Anyway, gender critical does not mean believing gender doesn’t exist. Getting rid of gender based harms involves criticising gender as a system doesn’t it?

But excluding trans women is a gender-based harm so why do gender critical feminists not reject that harm too?

TeenTimesTwo · 11/07/2018 17:41

My understanding, again trying to be neutral.

Trans people believe there is a feeling of 'being a woman' or 'being a man' that is separate from (and more important than) biology. [Except for those who feel their body is 'wrong' and therefore want surgery and hormones to change their body? But this appears to be a minority of modern trans people? ]

Gender critical people believe that feelings of being opposite to the sex of your body are mainly due to the strong gender stereotyping we have these days (see all the let toys be toys, don't keep shoving pink at girls, anyone can do any job etc campaigns pushing back on stereotyping) and that rather than saying people are transgender there should be much more acceptance of people not fitting the current gender based stereotypes.

There is also some concern from some in the LG community, and others, that teens / young adults who are having feelings of same sex attraction are being unduly encouraged to think they are trans rather than lesbian/gay and that this is coming from a trans activism agenda or even homophobia.
Whereas from the other point of view, it is good that people now have the confidence to declare they are trans if that is how they feel.

OvaHere · 11/07/2018 17:41

All gender, the first two obviously so, and the third because physical strength has no impact on the activity of changing but only about how women feel in the space which is a statement about gender.

You seem to be pushing the notion that taking one's clothes off in a mixed sexed environment is completely neutral and couldn't possibly lead to consequences beyond the act of getting changed.

This is utterly disingenuous. In any humanitarian situation one of the first things the UN does is establish separate facilities by sex for toileting, washing and changing.

Why do they bother doing this? For fun? We all know why they do it and it's because women and girls are vulnerable to sexual assault otherwise. There is plenty of evidence of this.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 17:42

I'd set trans out around the history that it used to be transsexuals with gender dysphoria who don't actually believe they've changed sex, but try to 'live as' or be treated as though they are the opposite sex to relieve their mental condition.

Then I would mention that since then, the trans umbrella has widened to include other groups, such as 1) people who don't have dysphoria but like to wear the clothes of the opposite sex and/or go into the private spaces of the opposite sex and/or be treated as the opposite sex for various other reasons including transvestite/crossdressers/drag queens. 2) people who believe they have an inner self, a bit like a soul, called their 'identity' which is the opposite sex and their body is wrong including 'shemales'/'dickgirls'. 3) people who believe in an inner self which is a combination of sexuality and personality that is completely distinct from their body and it is rude to perceive them according to their sex including non-binary/genderqueer.

I would say that these three types refer to transsexuals as truscum, because transsexuals believe you must have dysphoria to be trans.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 17:48

I've just spotted my error. Where would India Willoughby fit in? IW believes it is possible to change sex... perhaps it is no longer a requirement to sign off that you understand you aren't actually changing sex before srs.

BarrackerBarmer · 11/07/2018 17:49

Snappity

Allow me to demonstrate relevance then.

My questions relate to sex, which exists, and is binary.
All of us are of the male sex, or the female sex
(or have a recognised and tangible disorder of sexual development)

Any discussion invoking the word 'gender', also, confusingly, tends to use biological terms belonging to sexual classifications.

So it's a good idea to untangle the confusion in order to understand one another.

That starts with reaching consensus about sex.
And then moving on to gender.

Because sex is a standalone concept. It can be explained, fully, without ever referencing 'gender'. It exists in other species of plant and animal and can be objectively described without ever referencing feelings or identities.

But 'Gender' only exists by referencing sex. It's dependent upon an understanding of sex based terms.

So we have to explain sex first.

For example: I have XX chromosomes and a reproductive system which includes ovaries, fallopian tubes and uterus. I produce the gamete we call ova. I have gestated young. These tangible facts classify me as 'female' in the English language.
It matters not what the word actually is, as long as society understands it to be the label for the half of our species that possess similar characteristics.

As I am an adult female, the label used is woman.
My daughter is a juvenile female, and the word for her is girl.

How can we discuss the subject 'gender' that references sex without first agreeing our mutual understanding of the terms we are using?!

Snappity · 11/07/2018 17:50

I think the transsexual position could be expressed like this.

Everyone has a gender identity and present sexual appearance matters more than any "natal" state. There is a dissonance for individuals if their gender identity does not match their sexual appearance and that dissonance applies in groups if there is a difference between an individual's gender identity and the sexual appearance of group members.

Snappity · 11/07/2018 17:54

BarrackerBarmer, that's all irrelevant in the context of social spaces. How does having given birth have any relevance whatsoever to using a fitting room in a store, for example?

loveyouradvice · 11/07/2018 17:57

I think the OP posted a very valid question, and then helpfully clarified it - and that teen had a pretty good bash at simplifying the two "approaches", while recognising that there is more variation than that

Snappity it would probably help the OP more if you answered her question i.e. did an equivalent descriptor to teens of the two "approaches" rather than criticising teens one.... In fact it would probably help all of us.... including me!.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 17:59

I think the transsexual position could be expressed like this.

Everyone has a gender identity

I don't think all transsexuals believe in gender identity. Many recognised they have a mental condition of dysphoria which they opt to relieve with hormones/surgery/etc.

Imnobody4 · 11/07/2018 18:01

Snappity
Yes well if that's how you want to express it, but I've heard it put much better.

RedToothBrush · 11/07/2018 18:02

Water is wet.

There might be people who say its dry, because they believe it is and we've been getting it wrong for centuries.

You can not compromise and say, "er well its not wet and its not dry, its just a bit sort of damp/moist".

That's really the essence of the problem of the debate.

You'll never get a 'neutral' position for this reason.

Some might argue the middle line is that there is a very small number of people who suffer from a medical condition which causes psychological distress around their biology, and they might be better living a life more commonly associated with their opposite sex. In this case, they might benefit from having surgery to releave that. These people need protects to enable them to live relatively normal lives, but this still does not change their sex biologically (though they might have documentation that says otherwise, to help them tackle prejudice). But the number of people in this catergory is very narrow and defined and does not match with the much broader 'trans umbrella' which Stonewall support. But even this 'middle line' is deemed totally unacceptable to some trans activists.

You'll get articles around this position which do have more nuance and an understanding of the point of conflict (Debbie Hayton's in Quillette article) or the youtube blog of Rose of Dawn. Rose of Dawn is interesting as they point out that one of the issues is that the gender radical movement isn't one which is neutral and based on anything innate, but instead is a far left political movement trying to pass itself off as unpolitical and has a goal and agenda rather than the simple desire to exist as they are.

It is notable these two are both trans-sexuals who are caught in the cross fire of more extreme ends of trans activism and increasingly militant femininists who are trying to push back from 'Winston say five'. Both acknowledge they are still their birth sex although they may find this difficult at times. But as I say even their position is not deemed neutral as it acknowledges sex as a legitimate thing in addition to gender.

The bottom line is you either stick to the position sex is a biological thing that is unchanging and gender is ingrained in society or you have a belief that gender is innate and years of science is insufficient in explaining why people don't conform to the sex they were wrongly assigned. In this case there is not necessarily a need to alter your body to reflect your alternative identity.

And both ends of the spectrum of this argument are completely uncompromising on this, and for their own reasons feel that there is no middle ground that will ever be achievable.

The obliteration of the moderate arguement as having any legitimacy has seriously undermined it and removed the ability to have a more nuanced conversation with a lot of individuals, particularly trans activists who are believe that even trying to discuss this or introduce nuance is an affront to their identity and bigoted. You have to agree with them completely and without question or be bullied into silence on the matter.

That certainly is an ideological position and choice rather than deciding that acceptance and understanding comes from open discourse and questions where concerns and ignorance can be addressed and resolved calmly and mutually. The later takes time though, and there is a unwillingness to go through the process, and instead there is a belief that the best way to handle a lack of knowledge is to legislate and control people coercisively rather than by engaging with them.

I'm afraid the whole point is that there is a determination by the most militant transactivists who are largely in control of framing the debate to make it as 'You are either with us or against us'.

You are not supposed to talk about it. You are just supposed to accept what you are told without thinking about it.

And therein lies your problem if you intend to approach the subject; you need to know where the people you are talking with sit before you even start!

Snappity · 11/07/2018 18:04

I don't think all transsexuals believe in gender identity. Many recognised they have a mental condition of dysphoria which they opt to relieve with hormones/surgery/etc.

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance.

OvaHere · 11/07/2018 18:05

A fitting room isn't a social space it's an intimate space where people are unclothed. A social space would be something like a coffee shop where everyone is fully dressed and it makes no odds what sex you are.

As for everyone has a gender identity. I don't. I have a sexed body and a personality. Leading from that personality I have a number of likes/dislikes, hobbies and interests.

Some of those things some people would assign as 'male' or 'female' interests but most of us know that's bollocks and people can enjoy a wide range of things.

OrchidInTheSun · 11/07/2018 18:06

I don't think I have a gender identity. I wear 'men's clothes' when I'm not at work (in an office), I do DIY and can fix cars and am a qualified bricklayer.

I have also given birth to children.

What's my gender identity? I'm a woman not because I identify as one but because society has put me in a box labelled 'woman' and curtailed my opportunities accordingly.

"For instance, I think "women feel vulnerable" is a statement about gender, not sex because it is so heavily weighted by how society treats women. So, if a gender critical view is truly being expressed, then it should never use feelings or statistics - statistics again are all about gender and how society interprets."

Scott Wilson identifies as a man. It didn't stop them getting raped even though they told the rapist they identified as a man. The rapist didn't care.

If we were able to identify out of female oppression, rape, genital mutilation, crap salaries and wiping arses, believe me, I'd be there. It's our biology that constrains us, not our gender.

WhereDoWeBeginToCovetClarice · 11/07/2018 18:10

Gender dysphoria is the dissonance between gender identity and sexual appearance.

Not everyone believes in gender identity. Some people recognise that there is something wrong with their mind and they can't shake the feeling/delusion they are the opposite sex.

MIdgebabe · 11/07/2018 18:10

Short version as it appears to me

Extreme Trans position transwomen are women and must be treated as such in any circumstance

Mid trans position transwomen accept they are different to women but should be treated like women in most circumstances

Mid feminist position transwomen should be treated as women in most circumstances but these may be more restrictive set of circumstances than the mid trans,

Extreme feminist transwomen are men and must be treated as such in all circumstances

An additional complication is that some feminists will have different positions for neutered transwomen and those who have fully functional male genitals

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