What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Hi jacky! Dadjoke why can't we keep women's sex segregated and turn the men's gender neutral? After all, you seem to like the idea of mixed sex facilities. Embrace it!

Snappity came up with it Bowl!

She agrees that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen should be able to access segregated spaces.

I think if we can agree on a name for these spaces it will make conversation much easier.

Snappity? SadJoke? Any thoughts? Really looking forward to hearing them

DadJoke I mean! I do apologise.

I think that Dadjoke, when he said nontrans women, may have meant that Buck Angel is a transgender woman. I really do think that. Did you, dad?

Ask to see their genitals?

What is wrong with you

Hi LangCleg

I think he's gone off again. A comment about having a job to do, unlike women sitting around on Mumsnet all day, is coming to a board near us soon.

bettydumonde It's wonderful that you are throwing a bit of xenophobia into the mix. If I were based in the US, it wouldn't make my arguments less valid. I am not. I am using "bathroom" because the main battle ground for this issue is in State senates in the US, where right wing patriachs are framing paternalistic "bathroom laws" as a device to attack primarily transwomen, in the face of no statistical evidence at all. A third space is unnecessary, entirely unworkable and exclusionary. Where unisex or gender based spaces have been enshrined in law, there has been no increase in sex related crimes at all.

So my question is this. If you were to accept there is no evidence of an increase in incidents, would you still be against transwomen in women's bathrooms? I suspect so.

Men abuse and assault women all the time. The idea that coming out as a transwoman with all the unpleasantness that entails is really a plausible path to abuse women, rather than all the other direct and simple ways that men abuse women is risible, and the lack of evidence shows this to be true.

Evidence

There is no evidence that allowing transwoman in women's bathrooms has any effect whatsoever on crime rates. It does not impact women's safety.

The reason you don't want transwomen in women's bathrooms is not related to any actual data, but simple fear and transphobia.

It's entirely possible to have unisex spaces which allow people privacy when they need it. The need for privacy is not confined to people with XY crhomosomes.

So Dadjoke why do you not want these transitioners in the Men's Room?

No, we say no. That is an issue of consent. Respect my boundaries.

Why can't the men's be gender neutral, dadjoke? Why are you avoiding this question?

Hands up who responds well to lordly pronouncements that reference patriarchs with... wait for it... absolutely no sense of irony.

Deary fucking me. Where does HQ get them?

Me! Me! I respond well!

(Not really.)

The reason you don't want transwomen in women's bathrooms is not related to any actual data, but simple fear and transphobia

Well it's obviously not transphobia lol we were just saying we would rather share a prison cell with Buck Angel

Keep up

in the face of no statistical evidence at all

1. Transwomen retain the offending patterns and rates of the sex they were born.
2. We have single sex spaces because men as a class are a danger to women.
3. If you allow self ID you allow any man into the ladies

In the light of those three facts, how can you guarantee the safety of women and children in a unisex sanitary or other space?

Surely a question that needs to be answered by men is this:

Why are men demanding that it is women who must defend their sex-segregated safe spaces?

Why is dadjoke

Answering questions and then answering them himself?

I had an aunt that did that, she was 94 though so i put it down to not giving a shit what people thought anymore

Can't be the same reason surely

To be fair

The gents usually only has one cubicle

dad is probably concerned that he wont be able to take a shit if the bog is full of women and transmen

Why is it the women who must concede their space?
Has anyone asked if a gay man would have sex with a trans man? And if they wouldn't, are they transphobic?

Dad is really stuck. He can't say : men want sex segregated spaces too.

Where unisex or gender based spaces have been enshrined in law, there has been no increase in sex related crimes at all.

You're wrong, DadJoke. Target, a large American chain, introduced gender neutral changing facilities in 2016. Since then, voyeurism offences have TRIPLED.

Most TW have willies so 'no cubicles' shouldn't matter.

Silly dadjoke I didn’t say you were American, I said you were on the other side of the Atlantic. It’s not just America on the other side, you know!

We don’t use ‘bathroom’ at all here, unless referencing a room with an actual bathtub in it. That’s not xenophobia (husband number one was American, eldest child has dual citizenship) it means your statistics and legal arguments aren’t really relevant to our discussions on law changes.

We don’t care nearly as much about public toilets as y’all do. Here we care mostly about prisons, refuges and crime reporting statistics.

For 'where gender neutral spaces are enshrined in law' read 'where women's only spaces are illegal'.

Here is a public toilet in one of these places

Pratchet you've swerved the issue into prisons, and avoided the question. In addition, the reason you would prefer to share a cell with Bucky Angel is because you think he is a woman, and there is a name for that.

bowlofbabelfish That's not evidence, it's a bald statement.

Just for example, there have been literally no cases in Maine for 11 years since they introduced these laws. No law enforcement agency or human rights group reports any changes in these jurisdictions at all Your entire premise is women's safety, and yet women's safety has not been compromised in any way.

No one ever can guarantee anyone's safety, so the best thing to do is look at the data. I can't believe you are spending so much time and effort attacking a marginalised group which presents no measurable danger to women.

So, in the absence of any evidence at all, would you accept transwomen in women's bathrooms, or do you have other motivations?

JackyHolyoake It's not to do with whether I accept or reject people in my bathroom, it's a matter of public policy. Sex-based segregation is unworkable and exclusionary, and it's not how the law currently works. Introducing it would not affect women's safety and would have a disproportionate negative impact on anyone who is non-gender-conforming.