What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

In fairness, it seems to be the statistics given by the Samaritans. Around 28 women a week also kill themselves. This number is obviously awful, but frankly it has fuck all to do with the discussion of safe women only spaces.

Sorry yam . I'd not have posted that had I seen your post first.

Yam

There is a seven year waiting list for NHS adult mental health services at present. SEVEN YEARS. Even kids aging out of CAMHS at 18 have to wait seven years to be picked up by next stage services.

It’s absolutely awful.

I think that the point that the woman was watching the transwoman is very significant ( was that pom?)

It is evidence that the woman feels a bit concerned. Bespin perhaps sees that as a reaction of simple transphobia,. I suggest It is a reaction to a lifetimes experiance of abusive men and all the different ways they abuse women

Not saying all transwomen are abusers. Just saying that to a woman they look like a man , act like men, and us women have been trained to be wary around men. Don't dress provocatively. Cross the street. Keep in public open spaces. And now you want to add an exception that says,"except when the man says he is a woman"
But no exception for a man who says "I won't hurt you"
Hth

MIdgebabe

I am also wary of men and do all of those things. watching a woman in a shop buying shoes in a shop Is not one of them, well unless she as a pair that I hadn't noticed. what if the trans woman was not trans and just a woman who looked trans this also does happen. all that you have reported to the forum is a woman bought some shoes. this is like all them newspaper headlines were if you take trans out of them you just get things like woman gets married. we are really really boring you know

hi pombear ya I have forgotten the. exact topic, it was not a critisim of your post but if you were aware that you were the one observing another shopper and reporting on it to other people and they were just shopping

Dont be silly

Seriously

Youre taking the piss now

Mumsnet is full of the woman/man in the supermarket/carpark threads

And if you are telling me that you can walk round a shop without noticing anyone else EVER youre lying

pom 'noticed a transwoman shopping in a virtually empty store...that was the whole fucking story

Sorry yam i was reading this a post at a time

Dreadfully sorry

A massive fear of mine when it comes to my eldest

Rufustheyawningreindeer

ya I know that's my point take trans away then she noticed a woman in a store and posted that on here and we all discussed it to death, we all need to get out more lol

That was the point of your last post...

Not the first one on this subject

Rufustheyawningreindeer it sort of was but I was not clear about it, its like when newspapers make stories out of us like the 80s all the sex change machanic etc I just wondered why it was considered posting on here a woman buying shoes. though no doubt on a trans forum. somewhere Is a post about a trans woman buying shoes while someone looked at her. the Internet just needs stuff to fill it

More men succeed in committing suicide but more women attempt it. This is because men choose more violent and immediate methods (Samaritans guidelines so won't be graphic) than women. If you're measuring distress in actual recorded suicide attempts (not ideation) then women are worse off.

more women attempt it.

@UpstartCrow quoted some horrific stats recently about the number of survivors attempting plus those succeeding in suicide each week - haven't got them to hand as on phone.

These should be quoted to rebut the skewed stats often quoted by those who believe in sex change. Stats that are not to professional clinical standard being based on online surveys of people self declaring the number of times they thought about attempting suicide

So sorry Yam

Back to the delicious booze...

I discovered chambord in prosecco last year. It has not been good for my units per week intake!

Yes it's lovely.

Yes it's lovely.

So lovely I had to say it twice!

bowlofbabelfish

The current system is that there is no legal requirement for you to go into the bathroom assigned to your gender or sex. You could be arrested for offenses related to your presence in a bathroom, but there is no legal restriction on transwoman using women's bathrooms, and they do use them. Is your hope that the law is changed so that it's sex segrated, enforceable by law?

Which bathroom do you think these people should use?

So, which bathroom would you like this person to use?

@Snappity That would be unlawful direct discrimination of men.

And yet we've seen at least one clothing retailer make the single occupant toilet male and the baby change with a loo cubicle in it be unisex with no lock on the outer door, so a man could walk in whilst a woman was using the cubicle. And the shop thought this was A-OK. Now tell me again about direct discrimination, because it needd women to complain for the shop to make both loos unisex and fit a lock on the outer door of the baby change + toilet combo.

Dadjoke: why can't buck Angel use the men's? I don't care if they use the men's. Do the men care? Why do you care if buck Angel uses the men's?

DadJoke I think Buck Angel there has removed self so far from femininity that Buck would reject using the Women's Room.

Bespin: this is what trans people just do not get. That's not just another shopper. It's someone who may be next to you while you get undressed. Yes, we notice what sex they are.

Re suicide statistics.
The office of national statistics offers facts
www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/articles/whoismostatriskofsuicide/2017-09-07

Note ONS Statistician's comment
"The fall in suicide rates from 2015 to 2016 is the largest decrease in 20 years. It fell for both males and females in the UK, although men still account for three-quarters of suicides.”

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/birthsdeathsandmarriages/deaths/bulletins/suicidesintheunitedkingdom/2016registrations

Most of us find suicide statistics very troubling whether they affect women or men.

I don’t think they should be stacked against female murder statistics and then found less concerning just because the numbers are fewer or larger.

More ONS, murder statistics:

There were large differences in the victim-suspect relationship between men and women. In the year ending March 2015, just under half (49%) of female victims aged 16 or over were killed by their partner/ex-partner (81 offences) This is 5 percentage points lower than that found in the year ending March 2014 (54%) but broadly similar to the year ending March 2013 and continues a general downward trend since year ending March 2009.

In contrast, only 6% of male victims aged 16 or over were killed by their partner/ex-partner in the year ending March 2015 (19 offences) a percentage that is similar to previous years.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/crimeandjustice/compendium/focusonviolentcrimeandsexualoffences/yearendingmarch2015/chapter2homicide#relationship-between-victim-and-principal-suspect

It’s all horrific and the common factor as PP have said is Male Violence.

to all affected by these issues. also to the women on the thread who have talked about their rapes, sexual assaults, attacks and threats that have been perpetrated by men.

These FACTS and COMMON PERSONAL EXPERIENCES are WHY we don’t want male people in enclosed private female spaces. It’s perfectly obvious and rational why women would feel this way.

Also please see this thread- if anyone wants to understand what the women’s toilets are used for.

Spoiler alert:

1. it’s not the same as men use their toilet spaces for.
2. The presence of men in these single-sex spaces seriously compromises the important purposes that women need to use them for.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3203454-What-do-you-use-the-womens-toilets-for

erish

It does sound nice

Perhaps not enough to reapeat

Why do men post pictures of male looking trans people as if it's an 'aha!'

I'm happy for women to use any men's facilities. Of course! The women's should remain sex specific. Men aren't campaigning for single sex spaces. They aren't in danger in mixed spaces. Makes sense!

bd67

I think it only counts if it disadvantages men

Or at least thats the impression im getting