What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Caribou58 You do realise that women do know the difference between penis-holders and all the women you mention there, don't you?

How do you know what genitals a person using the bathroom has? How are you going to police this? Ask every gender-non-conforming person what's in their pants? Or do you have x-ray vision?

The solution is for males to accept our "no" and work out provision for those males who're not gender conforming within their own spaces, or provide a safe, private alternative. That alternative cannot be women's spaces

This. 100 percent.

Which is an irrelevance. What matters is how someone is now

Born male, die male. Not our rules.

Snappity survival instinct - like I keep saying, my rescue dog can tell the difference between XX and XY people - she had to figure out to increase her chances of staying alive. XX people develop the exact same skill.

Ask every gender-non-conforming person what's in their pants? Or do you have x-ray vision?

Lol. Woman don't need x-ray vision to spot a transwomen. We can tell.

This is Merriam-Webster on sex

1 : either of the two major forms of individuals that occur in many species and that are distinguished respectively as female or male especially on the basis of their reproductive organs and structures
2 : the sum of the structural, functional, and behavioral characteristics of organisms that are involved in reproduction marked by the union of gametes and that distinguish males and females
3 a : sexually motivated phenomena or behavior
b : sexual intercourse
4 : genitalia

Some interesting phrasing in that definition also

“feminists didn't create biology”
This

How do you know what genitals a person using the bathroom has?

What sex a person is is usually (in fact almost always) very obvious to women. Smell, stance, generally very obvious verbal, non verbal cues.

I wonder if men are perhaps less good at this, since we hear this ‘how can you tell’ a lot. It would make sense, since this can be a matter of survival for women.

And yes. We didn’t invent biology. Biology is impartial and it doesn’t care how we feel. It just is.

The thing is, it is men that need to be finding the right solution to this issue, not women. I'm sorry, but if trans women are scared of men's toilets because of male violence, then natal men need to step up and make their spaces safer for all men to use.

So you genuinely believe it is reasonable for you to demand a single sex space for yourself from which even trans women are excluded so that you feel safe, while telling Barbara Dunkelman that she belongs in the men's and that her safety and sense of feeling secure is a problem for men?

m.imgur.com/gallery/cHvZ6zb

How would Barbara’s safety be assured if any man can come into the ladies? If Barbara goes to the loo and someone wants to assault them, they will simply follow into the ladies.

How can Barbara justify making ALL the women in that bathroom unsafe?

*.

You don't know what genitals someone has so it will end up going on "looks somewhat masculine" in practice and that will include some people who are not trans women*

Well that's your fault. Your, plural, transactivists' fault.

Snappity, have you even looked at the title of this thread?

We’re saying Mx Dunkelman should have a choice, birth sex or unisex.

Snappity survival instinct - like I keep saying, my rescue dog can tell the difference between XX and XY people - she had to figure out to increase her chances of staying alive. XX people develop the exact same skill.

And there is the interphobia again with the false claim XX people = female and XY people = male.

Not ‘interphobia’ just boring old biology (I don’t think dogs can be bigots, do you?)

What is your definition of ‘sex’, Snappity?

And there is the interphobia again with the false claim XX people = female and XY people = male.

In essence though this is true. XX, XXX, XXXX and higher, Xo = female.

And so on. I also thought we’d agreed that intersex people tell us nothing about transgender and that the intersex community are not a gotcha device or a freakshow.

Yelling xphobia is a way of shutting down debate. It’s a thought terminating cliche

So you genuinely believe it is reasonable for you to demand a single sex space for yourself from which even trans women are excluded so that you feel safe, while telling Barbara Dunkelman that she belongs in the men's and that her safety and sense of feeling secure is a problem for men?

Yes it is bloody reasonable if Barbara is a transwomen. Its not a biological woman's problem. Don't try and make it so. Because it isn't.

But if transwomen don't feel safe in the facilities of their biological sex, then it's time to make the men's gender neutral. Not the woman's facilites.
No doubt the trans allies will happily use the renamed gender neutral facilities that were previously the mens. Then everyone is safe aren't they. The women from the men. And the trans women from other members of their own biological sex.
Taking over women's spaces isn't going to be the answer.

We’re saying Mx Dunkelman should have a choice, birth sex or unisex.

And can you not see how selfish and bigoted that looks? Thats all it will take to defeat you. A trans woman who clearly passes goes on television and says "The gender critical feminists say that I am a man and must use the men's toilets." At that point, the gender critical argument is lost. It is manifestly unreasonable.

One person on TV is all it will take.

Then people will be saying that obviously birth sex cannot be the right basis.

Bowlofbabelfish

^What sex a person is is usually (in fact almost always) very obvious to women. Smell, stance, generally very obvious verbal, non verbal cues.

I wonder if men are perhaps less good at this, since we hear this ‘how can you tell’ a lot. It would make sense, since this can be a matter of survival for women. ^

Hah! I remember this argument with gay people - "I can always tell people are gay."

Then you get false negatives and false positives. Do you then ask what their genitals are to confirm you are right?

I'd argue - even with your magic nose, you are likely to get it wrong. How are you going to police that? Sniff everyone who enters the bathroom?

A trans woman who clearly passes goes on television and says "The gender critical feminists say that I am a man and must use the men's toilets."

But actually - as per the title of this thread - the gender critical feminists are saying that the trans woman could use the third space gender neutral toilets.

No need to police it, all we need is the legal right to challenge/alert authorities when the spidey senses get tingling.

I’m still on page one but this had me laughing.

Biological sex is the construct added by gender critical feminists.

What the fuck? 😂

Third space, Snappity. Like the title of the thread says.

And laws are not made by TV personalities.

dadjoke

We use the system we have - men go in the men’s and women go in the women’s.

We segregate by sex, because it’s important for safety.

We police it how it’s always been policed (why must women be the police of this by the way?) social pressure and concentration for men to stay in the men’s and women to stay in the women’s. And the ability to challenge/alert an authority if a man does enter the ladies.

We keep the system as it is. Men do not get to enter women’s toilets.

Convention not concentration - typo