What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

I just CANNOT see how it is @selfish and bigoted” to offer a third space, undefined by biological sex, to individuals who do not wish to be defined by their biological sex.

I’m also intrigued by the mildly aggressive tone which followed the statements from various people that women can generally tell what sex a person is.

I know a lot of gender non conforming people - their sex is obvious. That may be an unpleasant thing for people who wish to appear as the opposite sex to hear, but it is true.

If they look like women that much we can't do anything about it. But that's so rare.

Women constantly police toilets informally by the way, it’s the reason we ‘go in twos’ and do things like hold each other’s doors closed.

"I can always tell people are gay."

No not always, although I'm not bad at it. I can generally spot a transwomen though. Being gay and being trans is two totally different things.

I just CANNOT see how it is @selfish and bigoted” to offer a third space, undefined by biological sex, to individuals who do not wish to be defined by their biological sex.

It’s not selfish or bigoted. But it does highlight what’s actually being demanded, which isn’t increased safety for men in men’s spaces, or access to third spaces - it’s total access to women’s spaces for a variety of reasons, including validation, power etc.

Nobody here is talking about chromosomes except you, Dad, other than to point out that we don't need to test them to be able to tell which sex people are in the vast majority of cases. Do try to keep up.

I’m also very happy to talk about chromosomes although fair warning, it’s kind of my specialist subject...

Gay people don't smell different?

It's about behaviour rather than physiology (without going down daft lines of thought about finger length)

Hey Snappity can you tell us a bit more about how you imagine ypyr idea to work?

You’ve acknowledged that women who have issues sharing with transwomen need separate spaces away from transwomen.

So what should we call these spaces do you think?

A message for all you woke blokes:

Get this into your head. YOU find the solution. We say no. This is a male problem. Women don't have to solve all your problems. YOU do it. Open the men's to gender neutral. YOU budge up. YOU.

Geddit?

Bowlofbabelfish I know a lot of gender non conforming people - their sex is obvious. That may be an unpleasant thing for people who wish to appear as the opposite sex to hear, but it is true.

I'm not taking the piss but my question is - how do you know you aren't getting false negatives? Without a controlled test - and I can't find any evidence of one - we have no idea. If I were to post a selection of pictures of transmen and non-transmen, how succesful do you think you'd be at identifying them?

If you are going to strictly segregate people by sex, how would that work in practice without asking everyone, or picking out gender non-confirming people and accusing them? Not everyone has your special chromosome sniffing skills.

I can’t spot gay people at all, presumably because I haven’t needed to for survival reasons? Although I have never fancied a gay person so maybe there is a survival of the species aspect to that?

I used to think I was quite good at recognising gay folk but then I spent some time working for a gay magazine, who shared offices with a HIV charity mostly aimed at gay men. I was literally the only straight (and only women) in the office and I was forced to admit I had been stereotyping. That was 20 odd years ago.

There is no comparison between picking up social signifiers of homosexuality and recognising male-born bodies presenting as women.

Suggesting that there is whiffs a bit like homophobia (although unlike some posters here I’m not a phan of —phobia accusations).

BTW

I want women only spaces where I can access other women without any men present. Women's conveniences are perfect for this. If I am ever caught short I can ask a woman. If I need someone to check if a creepy man has gone, I can ask a woman. If I need someone to tell me if a stain is no longer visible I can ask a woman. All without the humiliation of males being present.

No pasaran fellas.

how do you know you aren't getting false negatives

Straws duly clutched.

I'd never thought of women as providing those kinds of public services to other women.
Yet another firm of emotional labour we perform but I don't mind if it's mutual.

The law refers to sex, not biological sex. Let's not embellish it. The problem is, as I have said, that people interpret biological sex in different ways - often as chromosomal sex or reproductive sex and those interpretations are anti-trans (and anti-intersex) and more about ideology than safety or modesty.

Seriously? So if I interpret sex as whether you wear a blue ribbon or a pink, one then that is a valid interpretation?

Well it's been a busy day here

I am horrified that snappity doesn't want to allow differentiation based on genetic make up. That a group of people who, because of their genes suffer all kinds of abuse, including the imposition of restrictive gender sterotypes, should not be given any protection at all. Thatbthe person saying this has the genetic make up of the oppressor group, That protection should only be reserved for a group of people who are so full of self importance that they have no room left for empathy or common sense.

I remind and reassure myself that many if not most transpeople would disagree with that viewpoint. Certainly all I know IRL.

I know a lot of gender non conforming people - their sex is obvious. That may be an unpleasant thing for people who wish to appear as the opposite sex to hear, but it is true.
Sad but true. Not one of the transwomen I know looks like a woman. They may have boobs and be lovely people, but everything else screams 'man in a dress'.

I've occasionally used a 'unisex' loo, but wouldn't do so out of choice. For some reason, they were all dirtier, smellier and more unpleasant. Coming out of a cubicle to a man using a urinal didn't help either.

Would I want to share a loo with a 'male' transwoman. No, not really. Would I want a vulnerable female relative to share? No, I wouldn't. There is no getting away from the fact that the vast majority of violent crime is committed by men. I don't see how wearing a dress changes that.

Snappity

Which is an irrelevance. What matters is how someone is now.

Nope. Men are the danger to women, which is why we want to keep them out of our protected spaces.

WTF are 'butch lesbians' and 'any masculine women' doing in there with the penis-holders?

Please could you answer my question as to why you include these women with the type of human (penis-holders) we want to keep out of our spaces?

I really dont understand how people can say

Well how would you police separate sex toilets

As if its a gotcha...AS IF IT HASNT BEEN HAPPENING SINCE THE DAWN OF THE BOG!!

And actually, never used to be that strict. Occasional man in the loo...either a cleaner or just mortified when they look at you and realise they are in the ladies, no biggie. Transwomen...no biggie. A woman who looks particularly masculine...no biggie, if they are in the ladies loo they are most probably a woman (plus its never stood up to a second glance)

So any new 'policing' is completely and utterly the fault of the piss takers

Absolutely no pun intended

Snappity, you're back! Now you're here I'll ask again:

You feel a seperate space for women would be acceptable for reasons such as ptsd.

I have been both raped and vaginally sexually assaulted - I don't have ptsd, both went unreported and I have no proof, yet you would agree I have a valid reson to not be put in a vulnerable position near people with a penis, surely? Why should I be made to feel unsafe, so that someone else feels validated? Why should my rights disappear to increase theirs?

So what woulld you do? Just have a third space for only natal women who feel unsafe for whatever undocumented reason rather than proven ptsd? Perhaps women who's religion or culture won't allow them in such area's with men? Women who just really don't want a shared space? Sort of exactly what this thread suggested really...

Snappity, you said segregation on the basis of biological elitism is abhorrent. Segregation on genetic elitism is even worse.

But segregation in the basis of gender is ok then? Why is that different? And no one is saying your choice of changing room or toilet etc should be based on your likelihood of getting cancer ffs, genetic elitism, what absolute rubbish. This is a case of 2 + 2 = 5 methinks.

Wtf is biological elitism anyway? Have you just stuck 'elitism' on the end there to make it sound bad, like a soundbyte?

There is nothing wrong with segregation on the basis of biological sex. Not all segregation is bad. Not all discrimination is bad. Especially when there is a clear reason for it.

DadJoke

Bowlofbabelfish Thank you! That's really punching down into the issues. You need the space to do all of this, in privacy. Your solution is to separate transwomen from other women. Is there no other practical solution?

Dad, after many years, this IS the solution for women - we have found it. If transwomen and men need something different, go for it. We will support you. You're not hearing us - men simply do not have the same needs because they don't have periods etc. Why are you trying to tell us we're being unreasonable?

Segregation on the basis of biological elitism - really?

Gosh here's me completely unaware of my biological privilege for all these years when I've been catcalled, harassed, assaulted, man-handled, underpaid, patronised, stereotyped and discriminated against.

Forgive me if I can't quite muster a tear for an entitled man who now identifies as female and thinks that I have privilege simply because I was born in the sex class that he now wishes to claim for his own. Whilst neatly ignoring that the vulnerabilities I experience as part of my sex class - greater risk of physical and sexual violence from men, greater likelihood of pay discrimination, greater likelihood of failing to achieve career progression because I am seen as a "maternity risk" - are vulnerabilities that he will never experience, because he's had the advantage of male privilege.