What's wrong with fighting for the third space?

[DJLippy]

Can't we resolve all these Trans vs feminist issues with a third space option?

Male/Female as well as unisex intimate spaces
Unisex for those who do not mind (or don't want to wait ages for the bog!) But M/F spaces respect those who have religious reasons for intimate spaces away from the opposite sex and also people who need these spaces because of trauma.

Prison's for transgender folk who feel threatened in male spaces.
Nobody should be at risk from sexual violence

Domestic violence and rape crisis support services for transwomen.
Don't trans folk deserve specialist services? If I was a victim of assault I would want people who understood me to provide support

This is all I want and I am sure many women on this sight feel the same. Is this a valid working compromise?

Bowlofbabelfish Thank you! That's really punching down into the issues. You need the space to do all of this, in privacy. Your solution is to separate transwomen from other women. Is there no other practical solution?

Would large private cubicles not do it for you?

It seems you want a large enough area to be alone with your baby or with a small number of others without other people around. That also applies to men, surely. So the solution is still not separate transwomen, it's providing suitable private spaces. There are tons of small restaurants and coffee shops with have small independent cubicles - what do you do then?

Many countries have unisex facilities as standard. Do you consider them unsafe?

I used to think ‘just make all loos gender neutral’ until I was forced to rethink by a woman who told me about having a miscarriage in a public loo and a sight impaired woman who explained the fear of hearing a man peeing into the neighbouring loo.

Then I realised that single sex spaces were not mine to give up, and now I argue for third space options as well as same sex options, not instead.

I have no problem admitting I was wrong.

DadJoke

All the discussion here is about why women don't want transwomen in female-designated spaces. Can you explain why you think transwomen should not use men's facilities? Because transwomen are people who were born male, and in many cases still have male genitalia. Why do you think they don't belong with the other people who have the same type of anatomy?

We dint want to separate Transwomen from other women
We want to separate people with penises from women in women only spaces
Transwomen are not women. Their sex is male, they were born male and will die male
I defend their right to live their lives however they choose but not if it means someone with a penis can access a woman only space

If you were having a miscarriage in a public toilet, would you want men banging on the door telling you to hurry up? Or for the door to be opened up to allow medics to assist you with a mixed sex queue peering in to see why you were taking so long? Or for that door to open up directly into Starbucks?

I realise there is little likelihood of a poster named Dadjoke to find themselves in this position, but I’m sure you can empathise?

That's ridiculous. Biological woman do not need to be separated from other biological women because of how they present. They only need separating from men. Lesbians and butch women as you so rudely put it are biologocal women. Trans women are not.

You don't know what genitals someone has so it will end up going on "looks somewhat masculine" in practice and that will include some people who are not trans women.

As the number of trans men increases rapidly over the next few years that's only going to add to the complexity.

Large private single occupancy toilets are ok in some situations: for example in a cafe where there’s loo, sink, baby change etc and a space being enough for a wheelchair or pram. That’s Ok. If the loo isn’t big enough for a pram and I’m out with a newborn, I avoid that provider. I cannot leave the pram outside, I cannot leave the door open, so that space is closed to me.

So big single occupancy ones - ok in some circumstances. But. That takes up space. So while it’s Ok for your local Costa, it’s not cutting it in a club, or a stadium, or anywhere where multiple toilets are needed. We already face ridiculous queues for the loo.

Men also need privacy for dignity purposes. They also need single sex spaces - perhaps less so for safety and more for dignity but that’s still important. I wouldn’t want to see a male colleague clean off his coffee splashed shirt any more than he’d want to see mine - both of us need single sex space to do that. In large toilet spaces, with high throughput, men need privacy for urinals. Women need privacy throughout the space.

I’ll also mention women of faith - adjusting hijab for example requires single sex space. Orthodox Jewish women, Romany women, Muslim women and women of other faiths cannot use spaces where men are for their ablutions. The result of that is those women excluded from the public sphere.

And that’s what will happen. Women fought for public loos because it enabled them to safely leave their homes for more than an hour or so. That’s a huge deal, and I don’t think men often appreciate how much women rely on toilet spaces to participate fully in public life. After I’d given birth for example I had to be near a loo. There are a LOT of women out there with similar issues.

Which countries have unisex loos as standard? I’ve never really seen that and I have travelled and worked abroad extensively. In short no: I would not consider that safe.

All the aid agencies push for segregated toilet provision. I read a paper a while back that noted 635 sexual assaults in one township in SA related to inadequate sanitary provision. It’s a huge issue for women worldwide.

They need to be kept separate.

I’m also not happy with just turning the disabled areas into unisex provision. Disabled people have fought long and hard for their spaces and still do t have enough. (Changing places is an excellent charity.)

Dad is there no other solution?

Get this into your head. YOU find the solution. We say no. This is a male problem. Women don't have to solve all your problems. YOU do it. Open the men's to gender neutral. YOU budge up. YOU.

I believe that trans women are female but their sex was wrongly assigned a birth.

Language is so dangerous, it seems.
Even Merriam -Webster Now has this as a definition of the verb “assign” with an example...

^3 : to fix or specify in correspondence or relationship : select, designate assign counsel to the defendant assign a value to the variable
Though assigned male at birth, she appears most comfortable and in her element wearing a skirt and high-heeled sandals when riding a big-wheel or playing with a tea set. —Will Dean^

The solution is for males to accept our "no" and work out provision for those males who're not gender conforming within their own spaces, or provide a safe, private alternative. That alternative cannot be women's spaces.

The thing is, it is men that need to be finding the right solution to this issue, not women. I'm sorry, but if trans women are scared of men's toilets because of male violence, then natal men need to step up and make their spaces safer for all men to use. Why aren't they doing this? Why isn't LOJ and his band of merry misogynists campaigning to make men's safe spaces safer? I would support that campaign!

Prachet I am suggesting alternatives.

To be clear, you think regardless of a person's appearance or genitals, there should be separate bathroom provision for people with different chromosomes, regardless of any other factors at all? How would you like to police that? How would it work practically?

Transmen and transwomen have been using the bathroom facilities for their gender for years; women regularly use the men's if they queue is too long. It's only become an issue recently.

Snappity

If someone has PTSD - which was the context - they are entitled to a reasonable adjustment under the Equality Act 2010 for their disability, if there is one. That might mean a more private space away from both trans women, butch lesbians and any masculine women.

Say WHAT? WTF are 'butch lesbians' and 'any masculine women' doing in there with the penis-holders?

You do realise that women do know the difference between penis-holders and all the women you mention there, don't you?

Because transwomen are people who were born male

Which is an irrelevance. What matters is how someone is now.

You do realise that women do know the difference between penis-holders and all the women you mention there, don't you?

How? Objectively, how in practice?

You don't know what genitals someone has so it will end up going on "looks somewhat masculine" in practice and that will include some people who are not trans women

Indeed. Although most woman can generally tell anyway. And the women who have gone to great lengths to appear masculine shouldnt be offended at the question if they're using female facilities. Most transwomen don't pass fully anyway, so it's generally reasonably easy to tell.

To be clear, you think regardless of a person's appearance or genitals, there should be separate bathroom provision for people with different chromosomes, regardless of any other factors at all? How would you like to police that? How would it work practically?

Very simply. Men use the men’s and women use the women’s.

Men as a class are dangerous to women as a class. That is why we have sex segregated spaces.

The day men are no longer dangerous to women we can talk about opening up spaces

Which is an irrelevance. What matters is how someone is now.

I thought we’d established that humans cannot change sex?