Unwitting trans agenda allies

[Macareaux]

From some of the other threads I got to thinking about who supports the trans agenda.

I think that the vast majority of men do not but equally they are not impacted by it so, with rare and welcome exceptions, they completely ignore it and get on with their life.

However women, due largely to socialisation I suspect, want to be kind and supportive to people who they believe (due to uncritical media portrayals, Channel 4 I'm looking at you) were born in the wrong body. They also support LGB so how can you not support T?

So I think part of the ongoing task is to inform other women of the reality of the issue. Our friends and family and when they get it they will discuss it with the men in their lives. Foucusing on sports and changing rooms and refuges rather than bathrooms.

The GRA consultation could be just what is needed to bring this whole thing out into the open and is a good hook to hang a conversation on, especially with so much in the media about it right now.

You're right.

At the other end of (if not unwitting then perhaps not entirely deliberate) trans allies, the ones with a hell of a lot of clout, I came across a piece about the funding of transgenderism

thefederalist.com/2018/02/20/rich-white-men-institutionalizing-transgender-ideology/

There's a list of rich males, some transgender but many gay. Then the comment
'Separating transgender issues from LGBT infrastructure is not an easy task. All the wealthiest donors have been funding LGB institutions before they became LGBT-oriented, and only in some instances are monies earmarked specifically for transgender issues'

In other words much of the financial support for T may have come from the effective takeover of LBG .

I don't agree that trans allies are doing so 'unwittingly'. Most adults are able to form opinions of their own.

There is no appetite from the LGB people I know to detach the T.

What is worrying is that GC feminists are attacking lesbians for not being gender critical. Informing other women of an opinion is one thing but having a go at lesbians for not being GC is worrrying.

I have never seen anyone target lesbians with criticism for not being gender critical. Trans allies are often people who already subscribe to boy grain girl brain ideology before they encounter the trans narrative so it just makes sense to them. They don't see they were just sexist in the first place and as an added bonus they get to virtue signal with their sexism.

Sorry that should have read "Trans agenda allies" I could be found to be a trans ally myself in the right context. But I could never promote a gender ideological viewpoint.

I tried talking to a male friend about this. He is very concerned about the message to children and medicalisation of young people. However when I tried to explain that women now have penis and lesbians do also, he simply laughed and would not believe it.
He thinks I'm making it up or not understanding. He's very intelligent, but simply could not get his head around it. However this was my reaction when I first came into contact with trans ideology. I thought people were making a fuss over nothing, because its so nuts and has no foundation in reality.

To be fair I Daimbars gets routinely "debated with robustly" for not being gender critical.

I think it's important to emphasise that most (all?) GC feminists have absolutely no problems with everyone dressing and expressing their gender however they like, unless it impacts on women and children's rights and safety. Just saying so it's out there.

Absolutely, I started off as a disinterested cool girl who didn't see the problem, until I grew up, discovered I couldn't adopt out of sex discrimination, (ha, I thought I was clever enough, had made the right choices to be immune!) I experienced the grim sexual behaviour of a man who identifies under the trans umbrella, and understood the implications.

The Trans BOGOF (buy the nice oppressed transsexual, get the crossdressing fetishist free) is a marketing masterclass, by the latter.

Only marketing can't alone make a good product. I fear that as folk experience for themselves the reality of what they bought, there will be sadly be regret, and unfortunately it'll be the innocent Transexual who gets the flack.

Identity politics is a huge mental distraction for people. Instead of worrying about the stuff that they should be able to fix, but can't; like their own future, finances, etc. It's much more attractive to invest your head time in debating something massive, which you can only have a tiny impact on, and consequently NONE of the blame if it goes wrong.

Lesbians do not date males, anyone who says lesbians want to date males is not a lesbian, it is the whole definition of the word. We know many men pretend to be lesbian women on the net, if someone who calls their self a lesbian on the net, then goes on to say that lesbians are fine with dating males if a male identifies as a woman, I think it is reasonable to conclude that person is actually male.

I was at the pub two nights ago with a large group of generally lefty women, not one of whom had heard about the self-ID consultation or to be honest even believed me when I described the implications of self-ID. This included the head of equality and inclusion at a large university and one lactation consultant who had been to a conference where they were told to consider using the word "chest feeding" so as not to exclude transmen who might be nursing or transwomen who use a supplementer.

I was told I was just mistaken, that in fact transwomen would never be allowed in changing rooms and prisons unless they had had surgery and none of should mind that at all. That it would just never happen that people with intact male genitals would ever be in changing rooms, prisons, womens shelters, etc.

I was told how difficult it was to change gender, that doctors would never allow a man who was just trying to get access to womens' spaces to get a GRC because it was too onerous, would take years of hormones, surgery, paperwork, doctors are trained to spot people like that etc. I had to actually bring up the consultation document to show that all those safeguards would be done away with with self-ID. There was just general polite disbelief around the table and I had quite a lot of comments about how we as women should be doing everything to make their hard lives easier by welcoming them into womens' spaces. However it was clear on questioning that all these sentiments were aimed at post-operative people of either gender and there was open disbelieving laughter when I described the implications of self-ID.

The implication was definitely that I was some kind of crypto-conservative reactionary, but I'm hoping I planted a seed at least in some minds (especially those who know me as a relatively vocal feminist). Luckily the lactation consultant backed me up strongly, I don't think her "chest feeding" advice was sitting quite right with her either!!

I think that the vast majority of men do

I have never met a man who supports self ID. Mind you, I don't know any women who support self ID either.

Xiao I think it's a 'slow-burn' type of conversation in real life.

Lots of us, including me and probably many of the people you were talking to the other night, have been a) socialised to 'be nice' and b) campaigned and realised the importance of LGB rights for so long that the 'T' sort of slipped in there under the radar without us properly thinking it through and realising that it was very different from LGB issues.

It's a clever use of the word 'phobia' by this agenda, as it taps into a deep-rooted concern of many of those who would naturally defend others who are discriminated against.

It's only when the shutters are lifted and the light is shone on what's really going on in the T-agenda that people start to see the problems.

The seed of knowledge and facts you've planted is important - perhaps you can follow it up? You'll piss some people off who are still steadfastedly refusing to take a deep dive into what's going on. But others may look a bit deeper and see the issues.

Telling lesbians they have no right to call themselves lesbians if they are not gender critical is not going to win you much support with the LGBT community. Us LGBTs tend to stick together.

That's interesting daim, because much discussion I'm seeing right now is a serious fracture between many people in the 'L' space concerned about how the 'T' is encroaching.

Telling lesbians they are transphobic if they don't accept female penises in their dating pool is not challenging gender critical views, it's homophobic.

Well done Xia, when you get that 'don't be daft, you're misunderstanding this and being mean' response it's very hard to continue trying to explain that it can, and is already happening all over. It does seem so far fetched when you first come across it. I was like what? what? what? WHAT???

Keep on marching and talking wimmins, oh and taking the blood pressure medication!

pombear the best thing to do in my opinion is leave the lesbians alone and let them make up their own minds. That goes for the TRAs and the GC feminists.

It's a gradual realisation isn't it? Most of us started off as allies and then gradually, as the #nodebate bullying became more aggressive and as TRAs targeted language, sport, schools etc and women increasingly experienced our voices being drowned out by the misogynists and the woke, many of us woke up and realised what was happening - all under the umbrella of 'progress'.

It's taken a couple of years, but I don't know any lesbian who now isn't completely gender critical. Of course, most of us are older and established so we're just not easily gaslighted. It's our children / other people's children and young woman we are most worried about - navigating university life where the pressure can be immense and being on the receiving end of online pressure for teenagers. Even my trans friends are totally exasperated by the activists - and I feel for them as they really were totally accepted but now I think they worry that this might change.

TRAs have no clue how their bullying and intimidation are playing out in real life.

Exactly pombear, it seems some heterosexual men have deluded themselves into thinking that lesbians actually see them as women, when we simply see them as men who are perving on us. There are young lesbians who are too frightened to say anything to their faces, but these men are deluding themselves if they think actual lesbians see them as anything other than men, and feminists will always support women feeling comfortable saying no to entitled men. If they want older lesbians (I’m only in my 30’s btw) to stop supporting younger lesbians saying no to men they better think again.

Daimbars, the gay men trying to defend Alison Moyet from TRA’s on Twitter last night definitely made some comments about dropping the T!

daim
leave the lesbians alone and let them make up their own minds. That goes for the TRAs and the GC feminists.

that is an interesting comment, as overwhelmingly it appears to be lesbians themselves who are shouting the loudest against the appropriation of the definition of 'lesbian' by male-bodied people who self-identify as 'lesbian', despite owning penises.

To the point above:-
Is there a special word or term for lesbians who don't like cock?

Yep = Lesbians.

Pombear - yes indeed!

If you read my quote in the context of the thread I was saying I do not like cock. When questioned further I said some people (TRAs) accuse lesbians who don't like cock of being terfs. We are getting accusations thrown at us left right and centre.

Lesbians aren't the pawns in the battle between GC feminists and TRAs - it's really nothing to do with us so it would be nice if we could be left out of it. I'm
Asking this nicely from one female feminist to another.

I only brought it up again as the OP mentions excluding the Ts from LGBT and 'informing' other women that this is the reality of the issue.

Please leave us lesbians out of it. Thank you.

Some of us actually are lesbians, I am for example, just because some TA males (and their supporters) don’t like us speaking out against these men, doesn’t mean we will stop. They can claim to be lesbians as much as they want on the net, and no one is able to prove they are actually men (even though it is obvious). However, when they start to try and tell actual lesbians to shut up talking, about how we don’t like the way these men are invading our spaces and pretending to be us, then they are trying to silence actual lesbians. We are permitted to express our thoughts on this, and to communicate our thoughts and opinions to others, those that don’t like lesbians opposing these men can go to a site that silences actual lesbians (and there are many of those about).

This is so patronising. Please allow others to form their own views and accept that they can differ from yours.