Unwitting trans agenda allies

[Macareaux]

From some of the other threads I got to thinking about who supports the trans agenda.

I think that the vast majority of men do not but equally they are not impacted by it so, with rare and welcome exceptions, they completely ignore it and get on with their life.

However women, due largely to socialisation I suspect, want to be kind and supportive to people who they believe (due to uncritical media portrayals, Channel 4 I'm looking at you) were born in the wrong body. They also support LGB so how can you not support T?

So I think part of the ongoing task is to inform other women of the reality of the issue. Our friends and family and when they get it they will discuss it with the men in their lives. Foucusing on sports and changing rooms and refuges rather than bathrooms.

The GRA consultation could be just what is needed to bring this whole thing out into the open and is a good hook to hang a conversation on, especially with so much in the media about it right now.

You realize that some of us read the conversation where you made the Smurf comment as it happened, daim, and so it's too late to rewrite it now? Others can also go read it if they weren't around at the time and are curious. They can then see for themselves who the accusation was coming from (hint - it wasn't some vague other people not present in the thread, it was you).

daimbars

Telling lesbians they have no right to call themselves lesbians if they are not gender critical is not going to win you much support with the LGBT community. Us LGBTs tend to stick together.

This is debatable - there has never seemed to be a homogenous LGBT community with a shared agenda. Historically lesbians have never been supported in society or by the male gay community. On this issue they are again being dictated to by male born people. There is a strong element of homophobia and misogyny in trans ideology so it isn't an obvious fit to put the T with the LGB.

Also Daim - what Kittens said ^^
You were just trying to avoid the banned word, you weren't distancing yourself from the opinion.

And daim has every right to their opinion, obviously, but they should have the courage to own in rather than trying to wriggle out of having said it when it's pointed out later.

Yeppers

Historically lesbians have never been supported in society or by the male gay community. On this issue they are again being dictated to by male born people.

This is true, I know many gay men who are just as misogynistic as any other man. Men have always been at the centre of the alphabet soup and lesbians are just tacked onto it to make it look good. The truth in my view, is the alphabet soup is just about sexual rights for males, and now they have teamed up with heterosexual males they are actively harming lesbians in many ways. It is not something that I feel any affinity towards, GC feminist groups do much more for lesbians rights (because we are women also) than any alphabet soup org would ever do.

Lesbians aren't the pawns in the battle between GC feminists and TRAs - it's really nothing to do with us so it would be nice if we could be left out of it

Asking this nicely from one female feminist to another.

I've had a long day Daim. I'm tired.

A lot of posters who have interacted with you over the last few months I'm sure will do better her than I will in this discussion.

'Asking nicely'.

Yeah, I'll do 'nicely' as always.

But asking to 'excuse' the defence of lesbians, asking to stop talking about the issues many lesbians have flagged as concerns, to be 'nice' is a huge red flag to me.

"Please be nice and stop talking about things that affect females."
No.

That goes for the TRAs and the GC feminists

All the lesbians I know are GC feminists.

There is no appetite from the LGB people I know to detach the T.

I think you mean you don't know any members of the "Drop The T or Get The L Out" movement in the LGBT organizations.

There most certainly is, but many are just keeping quiet about it because of fears of being labelled trans phobic.

This is so patronising. Please allow others to form their own views and accept that they can differ from yours.

This x 100

Attacking other women for forming their own opinions goes against the very heart of feminism.

Anyone daring to disagree with a GC opinion on here is called a TRA. Any lesbian who says she doesn't have a problem with trans people is called bisexual and a TRA.

Some lesbians are gender critical, some aren't. Neither of these groups should be attacked, bullied and harassed for their opinions.

And daim has every right to their opinion, obviously, but they should have the courage to own in rather than trying to wriggle out of having said it when it's pointed out later.

You were just trying to avoid the banned word, you weren't distancing yourself from the opinion.

This is a prime example of a woman (me) being told what I think.

There is not one single example on here of me backing a TRA agenda but I am constantly told I'm a TRA because it's more comfortable to accuse me of that rather than than accept I'm just another woman with a different opinion.

To be clear my opinion is I don't give a toss who shags who. I am a woman married to another woman so it has absolutely no bearing on my life.

Daim, when you write things, the reader inevitably forms a subjective opinion of what you're trying to say. And in your smurf comment, my perception was that you were revelling in the almost-slurring of women, in particular those defending the lesbians that don't want dick.

Neither of these groups should be attacked, bullied and harassed for their opinions

Daimbar, do you include criticising opposing views in online debates as "attacking, bullying and harassing"?

Perhaps you could helpfully model some sentences that "smerf lesbians" could use to criticise views and ideas they disagree with?

We saw what you said, daim, nobody's buying it.

Meanwhile, back at the thread subject:

For a lot of libfem-type women I know, the issue is kind of threefold:

1. lack of knowledge of the specific issues often at hand (so e.g., zero discussion about how we accommodate everybody in the prison estate, zero discussion about how many narratives of 'trans kids' heavily lean on gender stereotype, lots of 'I'm sure no men would pretend to be trans just to get in with women' and 'I'm sure parents of trans kids wouldn't do that, what are you worried about.')

2. total lack of understanding of what GC feminists believe; I don't think any of them could actually articulate a GC position even to explain how they disagreed with it;

3. belief that 1) and 2) aren't relevant to the issue anyway, because the only possible formulation of this debate is that there are persecuted trans people and their allies on one side and conservative bigots who want them dead on the other, suggest any nuance anywhere and you're a heretic.

In terms of how you discuss this intelligently with them: Beyond a certain point you just can't. Once someone has committed to "trans women ARE women #nodebate" as an article of faith you're basically asking them to demolish their entire belief system and people don't do that easily. But if they're not yet that far gone, here's the things that tipped me from a more libfem-style 'live and let live, you bigots!' approach to a GC position:

1. reading and learning more about the specific issues people were disagreeing on. I had no idea that anyone was claiming transwomen literally, biologically were female and that sex was a social construct, or that anyone was saying we all had an internal sense of gender identity.

2. reading what GC feminists believed. Once it clocked for me that the "RF" in "TERF" stood for "radical feminist" I couldn't work out why radical feminists were suddenly the bad guys - that's second-wave feminists, have they all turned to bigots overnight or something? So I read some GC views and saw that what they were saying was very different to what I had been told they were saying.

There is not one single example on here of me backing a TRA agenda but I am constantly told I'm a TRA because it's more comfortable to accuse me of that rather than than accept I'm just another woman with a different opinion.

Backing the TA agenda IS calling people the word that shall not be named. Also, taking people onto secret groups where you have their personal contact details away from prying eyes...is what we call in safeguarding circles as 'grooming'.

Oh - screenshots...who knew?

Whoopsy! All the LOLs!

Oh FFS you know it was a reply to this comment! There are always some idiots who try and tell lesbians they want cock. I wasn't saying I agreed with it.

All the LOLs indeed - so the 'secret' GC group set in the 'other place' after Mumsnet announced the new rules is all fine and dandy but wanting to have a nice conversation with other lesbians without it being hijacked is sinister. Hahaha

It is when you are on a platform that you get people's names and phone numbers...the point of the 'secret' GC group is to try and discuss legislation without TRAs doxxing us and trying to get people fired from their jobs.

How patronising. Someone doesn’t agree with you therefore they’re uninformed and easily led? I’ve seen far better and more legit research basically anywhere else than on Mumsnet, where it’s all dodgy science and worse sociology.

Cool story.

dinosaursandtea did you see the p**k news poll?
Dodgy science

Daim

Your Smurf comment was in reply to the question in your screenshot?????

That makes absolutely no sense.