Unwitting trans agenda allies

[Macareaux]

From some of the other threads I got to thinking about who supports the trans agenda.

I think that the vast majority of men do not but equally they are not impacted by it so, with rare and welcome exceptions, they completely ignore it and get on with their life.

However women, due largely to socialisation I suspect, want to be kind and supportive to people who they believe (due to uncritical media portrayals, Channel 4 I'm looking at you) were born in the wrong body. They also support LGB so how can you not support T?

So I think part of the ongoing task is to inform other women of the reality of the issue. Our friends and family and when they get it they will discuss it with the men in their lives. Foucusing on sports and changing rooms and refuges rather than bathrooms.

The GRA consultation could be just what is needed to bring this whole thing out into the open and is a good hook to hang a conversation on, especially with so much in the media about it right now.

Lol, so now everyone that wants the T dropped from LGBT is a "trans-exclusionary radical feminist"?

Despite that including men, who obviously can't be feminists, and women who are not feminists at all.

P.S. Any woman that likes cock, whether innie or outtie, is not a lesbian. Men, whether transgender or not, obviously can't be lesbians. So sick of this gross rape culture.

YourMajestyJ Lol of course men can be feminists! Here's some reading for you so you can get up to speed:

www.globalcitizen.org/en/content/27-famous-men-proud-to-be-feminists/

Men can be amazing feminist allies. Feminism is about centring women.

YourMajestyJ Lol of course men can be feminists! Here's some reading for you so you can get up to speed:

Feminism is for females, the clue is in the name.

Like how lesbian sexual orientation is exclusively for females.

Errolthedragon, I read the link you posted about the funding of transgenderism. It's terrifying. It could bat Gilead, Orwell's 1984 and the Stepford Wives right out of the ball park.

I am sure there are a few straight men who would like to see the T dropped from LGBT but I don't think their view should be seen as more valid than a lesbian woman who does not.

If feminism is about centering females surely that should include liberal lesbians too?

Lesbians are allowed to exclude penis. Create a new term if you need one.

FFS. Lesbian is not an identity. It is a sexual orientation exclusionary of penis. Can't these non-lesbians who like sex with penis just call themselves heterosexual or bisexual? Or, if they're determined to claim a faux marginalised identity, buy some blue hair dye and say they're queer?

Also, if we're all suddenly claiming Smurf identities to keep Daim happy...

I am SMOOGLE.

To be fair LangCleg I think most of them do.

It's GC feminists telling lesbians like me (female married to another female) that we have no right to call ourselves lesbians that is concerning.

It's GC feminists telling lesbians like me (female married to another female) that we have no right to call ourselves lesbians that is concerning.

Are you saying that one of you wasn't born female?

No Tells we were both born female

No Tells we were both born female

Then why wouldn't you be a lesbian?

Unless you are using the term 'born female' to mean 'born male but always felt female therefore must always have been female'

Thanks Tells! Yes I agree. A lot of posters on here don't - see below and attached.

If you can't define woman and you're unwilling to define lesbian, your claim to even be a lesbian is moot, Daimbars.

They have got a point in principle though - if you don't know that a lesbian is someone who is only into women, and you think lesbians also like penises - then it will be pretty hard to define yourself as a lesbian as technically you are saying that you yourself are probably bisexual. I think that is their point.

Also isn't it technically bad form to quote people who are suspended and cannot respond to your posts?

Fwiw, daim I've no issue with you calling yourself a lesbian, because as a born woman, married to a born woman, you obviously are.
But in a climate where blokes are claiming to be lesbians by virtue of some inner sense of 'femaleness', I can understand a) why some lesbian posters didn't easily believe you and b) why you are not just considered 'a woman with a different opinion' but someone who actively works against other lesbians who are telling you into they are blue in the face that this is an issue. Which makes you a TRA ally and why you are widely criticized on these boards.

Oh don't you start Tells!

I didn't realise JuzzaL was suspended - we're not exactly buddies so I didn't get a text to let me know.

No one has to believe something someone says on the net, a person cannot force someone to believe they are what they claim to be. This business of forcing people into pretending they believe someone’s claims just because they claim it, is the whole problem.

Okay thanks FloralBunting - we are getting somewhere. Of course I don't mind people disagreeing with me, that's why we are having a discussion but to attack my sexual orientation is pretty underhand.

FWIW I disagree with this article written by a TRA in G Scene - it shows no appreciation of feminist's concerns and I am not aligned to this viewpoint at all.

There is a middle ground somewhere which both feminists and trans women will be happy with. Just haven't got there yet.

www.gscene.com/news/transitioning-with-sugar-trans-healthcare-and-the-gender-recognition-act/

No one has attacked your sexual orientation Daim, they've questioned how genuine you are when you effectively say that the cotton ceiling isn't something you've heard of/know about/seen anywhere out with MN. That's disingenuous hence the doubt about what else you say. Especially when that refers to lesbians who assert their own sexual boundaries in stating they are exclusively attracted to females, not those with penises who say they have an inner essence of femininity so claim they are also lesbians. You refer to it is being either trans inclusive or trans exclusive. Which then leads you onto being derogatory towards lesbians who exert their own sexual boundaries.

It's not hard to grasp what people here are saying to you, but it seems difficult for you to follow. Strange that.

daim

I don't think anyone is saying you can't be a lesbian!

They're saying that it's wrong for men who identify as lesbians to tell lesbians that they are transphobic for not wanting dick.

It's not complicated.

The reason this clashes with you, is that you maintain that men can be women. Therefore the logical conclusion to that is yes, lesbians 'could' take dick.

Much like it destroys the world woman, it destroys the world lesbian.

Lesbians at Pride today were asked to remove a sign that said lesbian = female homosexual.

At Pride!

They were handing out leaflets showing how they are being accused of 'trans-misogyny' for saying they wouldn't sleep with someone with a penis. That being attracted to genitals is a fetish and that lesbians who refuse to countenance a relationship with someone with a penis is oppressing them and is sexist. Likewise claiming they can't get pregnant is cissexist. And that a penis on a man who identifies as a woman is completely different.

It's RAPE culture.

LangCleg

Now, if only I could work out how to ethically address the Marmite conundrum...

Bovril. 🤣

I think personal attacks are nearly always out of line, and they're banned in the T&Cs as far I'm aware.

The difficulty that we've got is that we can't agree on a frame of reference for debate - and that's if we even get as far as that. It's very frustrating, which is when personal attacks come into play, because people are human and extremely irritated by the lack of progress.

The GC people started out by being very reasonable and stating clearly that a debate needed to be had and were met with various brick walls, not least of which was the argument you yourself have often put on these here boards - that you personally have no problems, and don't really believe there would or could be any for you or others in the future.

It's this dismissal-dressed-up-as-argument that has so royally put people's backs up. I want to believe that you and Rat and others are trying to be centrists in this topic, but sometimes you do tend to come across like a faux ingenue who doesn't seem to take other women's concerns seriously.

I'll be honest, my own position has sharpened considerably through this whole thing. I want everyone to be safe and secure. All born women, all gender non conforming people of any age, my own GNC daughter, my gay daughter, people with dysphoria, everyone.
But TRAs are pushing for things that will damage the people I have mentioned, and I find myself steeled against that because it's just wrong.

Datun like I said earlier there are two 'camps' of lesbians, some would be happy to hold up the sign you mentioned some wouldn't. I have no problem with the definition of lesbian being 'female homosexual' - that is what a lesbian is, but the intention of the sign is to be inflammatory towards trans women.

Considering pride is a celebration of lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender people it is bad form to display a banner that is deliberately designed to upset some of the people the event is celebrating.

FloralBunting I was very similar to you and came on here with an open mind but the hostility I received for saying anything that wasn't gender critical pushed me more towards the trans ally position, especially being told I had no right to call myself a lesbian.

Anyway off to watch the footie now!