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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Let's call Radio 4 and tell them what it's like to be gender critical LGBT person

93 replies

DJLippy · 02/07/2018 13:07

What's it like to be LGBT in the UK today? That's the question on tomorrows You & Yours phone in - a Radio 4 consumer affairs show (12.15 - 13.00)

I think this is a warm up to the GRA consultation being launched this week. Basically, I think it will be the TRA show - a chance for the BBC to do some more GRA propaganda. I think that gender critical lesbian, gay and bi-sexual voices should get an airing.

They want submissions for tomorrows show. This is a brilliant programme - and they have some of the best producers working in the British media right now. Let's write in and tell them what we think.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9/contact

OP posts:
Original poster
DJLippy · 02/07/2018 23:15

Have you all gone and expressed your feelings on the link yet? I don't think they will make a mention but You & Your's is the most intelligent programme on UK media. If anyone is going to respond to user feedback - this show will!

OP posts:
bd67th · 02/07/2018 23:56

@2rebecca believe me there is nothing positive about it and I suspect that lesbians will agree with me. The TRA who made it up intended for it to sound like the glass ceiling, treating sex with lesbians as something to aspire to, a goal. The TRAs who subscribe to this are the trans version of incels. Trincels? Traincels?

ClareFlourish · 03/07/2018 00:01

As a trans woman-

I find the concept of "cotton ceiling" completely vile. The thought that I would pressure someone into sex who did not want it repels me. I would never support a trans woman seeking sex with a lesbian against her will, any more than any other person doing that. So if there is a rape threat I am with the lesbians opposing it, and I hope most trans people would feel the same way.

DJLippy · 03/07/2018 00:09

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DJLippy · 03/07/2018 00:13

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OlennasWimple · 03/07/2018 00:22

Um, I'm not sure why Clare deserved that response OP Hmm

Anyway, just to lower the tone...

this captures the hideousness of the whole concept and doesn’t beat around the bush!

Did this make anyone else snurk, or am I the only one with a puerile sense of humour Grin

Can I recommend that anyone who responds to the imminent GRA consultation uses the phrase "cotton ceiling" at a relevant point? For example as "anyone who does not know what the term "cotton ceiling" means should not be developing policy on this issue"

LonginesPrime · 03/07/2018 01:22

On another thread you seemed sceptical of the existence of any evidence. Now you know it exists you want people to stop discussing it?

The evidence all seems to be from the same curated website though, and half of that either doesn't have sources or is from reddit. There are no dates or details on many of the posts and the ones where the links aren't broken (lots of the original pages have been deleted) link through to posts from at least four years ago.

Even the spectator blog post links back to the Terfisaslur website as apparent evidence of what the TRAs are saying as opposed to linking to the actual TRA websites, so it feels a bit like you've got some sort of self-sustaining echo-chamber going on.

I'm not saying those posts didn't exist at some point or that TRAs didn't write them, but it feels like you're dining out on an old story rather than something that's actually happening to real life women now. As I said before when you offered to share your evidence, I'm prepared to keep an open mind but would want actual facts before committing to a viewpoint like this.

You've got all this flimsy 'evidence' that trans people are apparently going around saying this or that, and then, when someone who's actually trans comes on the thread to condemn the rape culture, you tell them to stop talking and go away because they don't understand. So a trans person says they think X, and you tell them to shut up and turn to everyone else to tell us that trans people think Y.

I appreciate that some bisexual people have been harassed via OLD and that's obviously not acceptable and no-one should be pressured into sex ever, but I have never heard anyone IRL use the term cotton ceiling, I think it's creepy and I agree with 2rebecca when she said:

The cotton ceiling sounds like a flimsy made up thing but is women saying no

Oh well - bring on the next string of 'cotton ceilings' or telling me to fuck off...

thebewilderness · 03/07/2018 01:29

As a trans woman-I find the concept of "cotton ceiling" completely vile.

Spare us the NAMALT.

thebewilderness · 03/07/2018 01:34

Even the spectator blog post links back to the Terfisaslur website as apparent evidence of what the TRAs are saying as opposed to linking to the actual TRA websites, so it feels a bit like you've got some sort of self-sustaining echo-chamber going on.

You are welcome to duplicate the work that the aggregator site did if you need to see it all in the original in order to believe it.
It is everywhere. All over twitter and tumblr, Women were assaulted at Pride this year. Ignorance is a choice in the information age.

LonginesPrime · 03/07/2018 01:39

I can't duplicate the work because the source material isn't there.

I don't think it's unreasonable to want to check facts and sources, especially when we're talking about anonymous websites as opposed to already trusted sources.

It's nothing personal, I just like to know what I'm talking about and research things properly before reaching a conclusion. That's just how I roll, it doesn't affect what you do though.

thebewilderness · 03/07/2018 02:30

Sure you can. The internet is still there, and the same people are still screaming at women to submit, or die.

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 05:37

The evidence all seems to be from the same curated website though

No it wasn't. There were videos, articles, recent tweets. Are you implying that the posts on the "curated website" (why is that a problem?) aren't real?

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 05:39

The Spectator linked to www.terfisaslur.com because to most normal people it is actually pretty shocking to see the vicious and violent level of misogyny and homophobia from some transactivists. Perhaps you don't get that?

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 05:41

That's just how I roll

Right. Because clearly you're making every effort to inform yourself.

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 05:57

Here's a recent Twitter thread of homophobia and misogyny towards lesbians from TRAs and their allies.

twitter.com/fedupfemme/status/929540876958826496?s=20

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 06:04

Oh look, here's another:

twitter.com/exposinglesphob/status/1007361036511477760?s=20

MyOtherUserNameIsAUnicorn · 03/07/2018 06:32

Oh I just heard this and came straight on to post about it!

Bespin · 03/07/2018 06:40

I always find it odd when everyone says you don't like dick or if you do your not a lesbian. Now I agree with people that it's stupid when someone puts your transphobic if you are not attracted to trans woman as they are woman and you should be. That does not make any sence if you are not attracted to a type of woman then that's fine. But also people don't get to police who is and is not a lesbian if that person's view is that trans woman are woman and they are ok with being attracted to them. As we are very rarely attracted to. Someone we meet when they are naked we are not usually attracted to there private parts. If when you find out what they are and don't find that attractive then that's fine.
But to say that woman that find trans woman attractive especially post operative ones are not lesbians because your world view does not. Except that trans woman are woman is not allowing someone else the right to define there own sexuality.

I also find the aggressive responce to posters on this thread off putting as no one would condone someone being forced to have sex and I find the comments of tras crass when they try and make such points.

R0wantrees · 03/07/2018 06:51

Magdalen Berns

HotRocker · 03/07/2018 08:39

Besp, it’s not ok when a group of male bodied people come along and appropriate our word, that specifically defines us, then demand we all comply, even with our bodies. Especially when males have been fetishising us for ever, asking us if they can watch, if they can join in, asking us intimate questions about our relationships, for their own titillation, and getting nasty/angry/violent with us when we don’t comply. This is not happening in a vacuum, and we‘re all too aware and used to mail sexualised behaviour directed at us.
Lesbian means homosexual female. It is not their word, they are not expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be a lesbian, any more than I as a white person am expanding the bandwidth of what it is to be black.
Mail bodied people don’t understand what it’s like to have this creepy threatening rapey bullshit aimed at them because it doesn’t happen to them because they do not have female body, and if they don’t have a female body, they are not a lesbian.
The only thing I want to hear out of men about the cotton ceiling is no, this is unacceptable and I wholeheartedly condemn it. Not no but but but. No does not have any buts. But in this case means homophobic rapey behaviour is acceptable if x, or it’s ok for y to do it because why is z. It is never okay to say but homophobic rapey behaviour is alright because, or not happening because. If a member of an oppressed group you aren’t part of tells you that something is happening, believe them, or are we back to the days of racism doesn’t exist because I as a white person haven’t experienced it?

ClareFlourish · 03/07/2018 08:53

Actually DJLippy I have experienced men coming on to me, not taking no for an answer, using power to coerce me. As a trans woman.

LonginesPrime · 03/07/2018 08:55

The Spectator linked to www.terfisaslur.comm* because to most normal people it is actually pretty shocking to see the vicious and violent level of misogyny and homophobia from some transactivists. Perhaps you don't get that?

No, I get that. I agree it's shocking, which is why I took you up on your offer of evidence.

I've seen the demonstration videos and I'm not in any way suggesting that some extremist TRAs hold these views and are pushing them on social media. But to blame all trans people for the actions of some is prejudice.

Many of my friends and colleagues are also lesbian or bisexual and we interact regularly with normal, reasonable transwomen (many of whom are also friends or colleagues). I've just not encountered anything like the type of extreme TRA views or attitude seen on Twitter IRL and so if I'm more sceptical than most, it's because I'm weighing up crazy people on social media (where clicks are everything and controversial opinions achieve this aim) against my lived experience of lesbians, bisexuals and transwomen interacting normally on a daily basis. So I admit that perhaps I need a higher threshold of evidence than a person (and I don't mean you, just generally) who has only met angry extremist TRAs at rallies and seen the extremist videos online. Which is similar to how islamophobia seemed to evolve in the UK too).

I'm not denying that there are extremists or misogyny and I'm not condoning those views in any way, and I do challenge my trans friends when they discuss gender stereotypes in ways I feel are damaging to women (they usually haven't realised, because it simply wasn't on their radar).

I understand that people on the feminist board are paranoid about being infiltrated and I completely get why, and I know it's sometimes best to assume everyone on an anonymous forum is an enemy until they swear their allegiance, but I feel that this also has the unfortunate side effect of stifling debate because anyone who queries sources or disagrees with an opinion is assumed to be the enemy or trying to push a specific agenda, which can give off the impression that people on here are closed-minded and unwilling to justify their position.

Ereshkigal · 03/07/2018 09:06

But to blame all trans people for the actions of some is prejudice.

Do point out where anyone is doing that. Not accepting gender ideology and politics is not the same thing. You can't change sex, they have not done so, and women need to have rights. And many transactivists would like us not to. That's the long and the short of it.

These loud people on social media are not irrelevant. They are the mouthpieces of this movement. They are getting laws and policies changed at women's expense. There is a huge misogyny and homophobia problem.

Stilettosandan0venglove · 03/07/2018 09:30

I really hope some of you get on You and Yours. As DJ says, it's a brilliant program. I'll have my fingers crossed for you.