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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

Let's call Radio 4 and tell them what it's like to be gender critical LGBT person

93 replies

DJLippy · 02/07/2018 13:07

What's it like to be LGBT in the UK today? That's the question on tomorrows You & Yours phone in - a Radio 4 consumer affairs show (12.15 - 13.00)

I think this is a warm up to the GRA consultation being launched this week. Basically, I think it will be the TRA show - a chance for the BBC to do some more GRA propaganda. I think that gender critical lesbian, gay and bi-sexual voices should get an airing.

They want submissions for tomorrows show. This is a brilliant programme - and they have some of the best producers working in the British media right now. Let's write in and tell them what we think.

www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b006qps9/contact

OP posts:
LonginesPrime · 02/07/2018 17:57

I'm not saying you have to shut up, I did acknowledge that you can obviously say whatever you want.

I just think that the term cotton ceiling itself isn't helpful and neither is saying 'the cotton ceiling is real' as it implies that lesbians are doing something wrong.

If a hate group was called 'death to lesbians', the media would report it as an anti-lesbian hate group - newsreaders wouldn't be saying 'death to lesbians' this and 'death to lesbians' that.

Anyway, clearly I'm nothing to do with whatever your point is, so I look forward to being enlightened when I hear you on the radio tomorrow.

HermioneWeasley · 02/07/2018 18:02

Great idea about contacting You and Yours. I’ve done it, it would be great if lots of other gender critical lesbians and bi women did the same

Ereshkigal · 02/07/2018 18:42

If a hate group was called 'death to lesbians', the media would report it as an anti-lesbian hate group - newsreaders wouldn't be saying 'death to lesbians' this and 'death to lesbians' that.

It's not a hate group. It's a viewpoint espoused by a significant number of transactivists. Whatever term is used will be either upsetting or ineffective. Because it's a homophobic and misogynistic concept. I wish rape and sexual coercion would go away too. As a rape survivor I wish I never had to hear the word. But I need to, otherwise the abuse is made invisible and women have no voice to challenge male violence. On another thread you seemed sceptical of the existence of any evidence. Now you know it exists you want people to stop discussing it? Hmm

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 18:58

www.gaystarnews.com/article/pride-stonewall-support-apology/#gs.g=frofY
From Gay Star News
"Prides slam Stonewall for failing to support them, demand apology
In a survey of UK Prides, the country’s leading LGBT charity was rated just ‘three out of 10’
(extracts)
Pride events across Britain are calling for a public apology from leading LGBT charity Stonewall, GSN can exclusively reveal.

They are also demanding the charity changes its ways, with one Pride accusing it of ‘acting like the bloody LGBT police’. Other Prides accuse Stonewall of taking credit for their work but failing to support them.

Gay Star News has obtained a copy of the results of the survey of Pride organisers. The UK Pride Organisers Network will present the report to Stonewall when they meet with the charity in the next few minutes.

And it is likely to make uncomfortable reading for the charity... (continues)

The survey indicates Pride groups have a number of complaints about Britain’s leading lesbian, gay, bisexual and transgender charity, going back a number of years.

But two events appear to have triggered the UK Pride Organisers Network and European Pride Organisers Association to survey their members....

The report contains detailed comments from many of the organisers of Prides around the UK.

While some recognize the ‘great work [Stonewall does] for the LGBT+ community’, most of the comments are negative.

One Pride said: ‘They are like a bank rather than a charity. [They] hold vast amounts of cash reserves whilst LGBT need goes unmet and other LGBT charities making a difference on the ground are closing.’

Stonewall had an income of £7,246,000 ($9,530,000, €8,184,000) last year. When their last financial year ended, on 30 September 2017, they held almost £5million ($6.6million, €5.6million) of reserves.

Several of the Prides say Stonewall doesn’t attend their events. When the charity does attend, the Prides claim they haggle for the lowest possible cost for a stall. On average, Prides make around a quarter of their income from selling market stalls.

Others accuse Stonewall of failing to be involved in local LGBTI communities, only visiting their town or city once a year.

Many of the Prides accuse the charity of ‘profiteering’ from their events. They suggest Stonewall should work in partnership with them and even provide financial support....

The biggest take-away from the comments from Prides which completed the survey is that Stonewall should work in partnership with them.

They want the charity to show ‘humility’. Some indicated Stonewall currently tries to control what Prides do. One called on the organisation to ‘Stop acting like the bloody LGBT Police. They need to “get over it”.’

The UK Pride Organisers Network report makes several recommendations.

They ask Stonewall to share the profits from Primark between Prides and organisations working in Turkey, Myanmar and China.

In addition they want Stonewall chief executive, Ruth Hunt, to say sorry. They want her to acknowledge ‘the disquiet among Pride organisers about their conduct’ and commit to working with Prides in future.

Moreover, they want Stonewall to promise they won’t take any future sponsorship or fundraising deal that ‘includes the word Pride’. This is likely to prove a difficult pledge for Stonewall to make, given their need to fundraise.

Stonewall responds
Gay Star News approached Stonewall asking them seven questions, to give them a full opportunity to respond to our story.

They have declined to comment until they have reviewed the full report."

bd67th · 02/07/2018 19:24

Obfuscation of language is a form of social conditioning to make the unpalatable seem palatable and vice-versa. TRAs deliberately call their plan to coerce lesbians into accepting male sexual partners "overcoming the cotton ceiling" to sanitise it and make it sound progressive. The whole purpose of the term "cotton ceiling" is to make people think that lesbians are bigoted, that's how the social conditioning works! To expose this sexual coercion for what it is, we have to use their euphemism, explain clearly what it actually means, and highlight the double standard by which straight men are mysteriously exempt from the pressure to let bepenised transwomen into their beds. If we refuse to do that, they carry on saying "cotton ceiling" unchallenged and can disown our more accurate terms "sexual coercion" and "corrective rape" by saying "but I've never said anyone should coerce anyone" because they never used that actual word "coerce".

I understand that finding out that a group of males wish to colonise your female-only sexuality is unpleasant, but better to know than not know.

R0wantrees · 02/07/2018 19:31

James Kirkup, 'The silencing of the lesbians'
extract)

"Is it respectable to state that your sexual preferences and choice of sexual partner depends, at least in part, on the potential partners’ genitalia?

Some transgender women don’t think so. They suggest that female-born lesbians who decline to sleep with transwomen who have a penis are guilty of bigotry or transphobia. Some of them express that argument in very blunt terms. (For more about what some call the “cotton ceiling” that excludes transwomen with penises from sex with lesbians, see this)

Some lesbians feel uncomfortable, to put it mildly, about such arguments. Lucy Masoud, a London firefighter trade unionist, says some transgender people are “bullying lesbians into having intercourse with people they don’t want to…. [I] just need to escape being labelled a transphobe for not wanting to sleep with people who have penises.”

To summarise: lesbians, who say they are sexually attracted to people with female genitals, report that they find themselves being told, sometimes aggressively, that they must include in their range of potential sexual partners people who have male genitals. And if they speak out to challenge such messages, they are told they are being “transphobic” or bigoted or similar.

Now, there are words for a person with a penis who insists that women who say they do not want to touch that penis should in fact touch that penis and who put pressure on women to do. But I won’t use those words here because this isn’t that sort of article. I’ll just say that this sort of behaviour strikes me as the sort of thing that shouldn’t go unremarked or unchallenged.... continues

blogs.spectator.co.uk/2018/05/the-silencing-of-the-lesbians/

embedded link: terfisaslur.com/cotton-ceiling/

OlennasWimple · 02/07/2018 19:33

Cotton ceiling

Cotton ceiling

Cotton ceiling

Cotton ceiling

Those two words sum up, for me, why the TRA movement is a homophobic movement. Everyone should know what it means, and why it's important

2rebecca · 02/07/2018 19:49

I think the term cotton ceiling is stupid. It gives no clue as to what the issue is and makes it sound like a clothing problem. Mention the issue but I'm not sure talking about cotton ceilings is helpful. Talking about how lesbians are being marginalised generally in LGBT and pushed out by XY people saying they are lesbians too might be better.

PencilsInSpace · 02/07/2018 19:50

How unfortunate that all the words we need to describe what's going on turn out to be so problematic.

MsBeaujangles · 02/07/2018 19:58

I think the term cotton ceiling is excellent. It conjures up a very unpleasant mental image for me but this captures the hideousness of the whole concept and doesn’t beat around the bush!

Floorplan · 02/07/2018 20:08

It's a useful phrase as it immediately demands the question "what's that" and once you know, well, it's an amazing metaphor for tras' theft of womanhood, even to the extent that a woman cannot choose to sleep exclusively with other women. The glass ceiling is about male power and so is the cotton ceiling. I think it's really powerful. I think the tras have shot themselves in the foot by inventing it myself.

Floorplan · 02/07/2018 20:12

Themselves !

SardinesAreYum · 02/07/2018 20:12

The phrase comes from a trans group itself years ago, where (from memory) a conference / meeting thing for LGBT+ hosted a session for MTF transpeople only, called "overcoming the cotton ceiling" which was about strategies to reduce the problem of lesbians not wanting to have sex with you.

I'll see if I can find it if you like.

Feminists didn't make up this term nor what it means. The fact that it seemed reasonable to get together to discuss this at a public meeting type thing - ie it was an advertised segment - is just grim.

Also note the "exclusionary" nature of who was allowed to attend - it was quite specific. Ironic, huh.

SardinesAreYum · 02/07/2018 20:16

www.cristanwilliams.com/b/wp-content/uploads/2013/09/CC-workshop.png

Don't know about this blog (never read it) but has a clip of the blurb for the session. Sponsored by planned parenthood, toronto, a few years ago.

SardinesAreYum · 02/07/2018 20:18

www.facebook.com/PPToronto/posts/10150615471958021

Toronto PLanned Parenthood issued this hopeless "explanation" .

thebewilderness · 02/07/2018 20:41

“Overcoming the Cotton Ceiling: Breaking Down Sexual Barriers for Queer Trans Women”

Men and M2T only, no women allowed.
That business about how they brought together women and queer transwomen is so much bullshit. It was a men only event.
I did think at the time that it took PP by surprise, but since they have become a major supplier of drugs to transitioners I no longer think that.

Ereshkigal · 02/07/2018 21:11

Don't know about this blog (never read it)

It's a TRA propaganda site on stilts.

bd67th · 02/07/2018 22:04

There is fucktons of this rapey lesbophobia out there: Rapey Riley, Afropunk describing dating preferences as "violence" and something to "reflect on", I could go on. When a person's refusal to date someone is characterised as "violence", we know we are dealing with a men's sexual entitlement campaign.

bd67th · 02/07/2018 22:14

@2rebecca, "cotton ceiling" is what some TRAs call their lesbian-raping tactics. We can only talk about how some TRAs coerce lesbians into sex by using the term "cotton ceiling". We have to be able to say things like "some TRAs try to guilt-trip lesbians into sex with bepenised people, here are some links to articles where they do this, they call the fact that lesbians don't want dick 'the cotton ceiling', google for it". We have to be able to call out their narcissistic sense of entitlement by highlighting how they talk about it.

2rebecca · 02/07/2018 22:18

Agree my understanding of the cotton ceiling is that it's a phrase first used by transwomen against lesbians so I don't understand lesbians seeing it as a positive phrase. It's creepy and makes no sense. The glass ceiling is for women to break through. The cotton ceiling sounds like a flimsy made up thing but is women saying no

DJLippy · 02/07/2018 22:48

@R0wantrees as an aside - I think I speak for many people on here when I say - Thank's!

OP posts:
DJLippy · 02/07/2018 22:56

"Oh, her signpost's her signpost's make the TRA look like they're not women"

^Bruno Mars related lolz....

OP posts:
HotRocker · 02/07/2018 23:04

Cotton ceiling
Bets on this will be the next band phrase on mumsnet.
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling
Just gonna say it a few more times before it goes.
Cotton ceiling
Cotton ceiling

HotRocker · 02/07/2018 23:07

Banned even. Effing dictate.

AngryAttackKittens · 02/07/2018 23:07

How unfortunate that all the words we need to describe what's going on turn out to be so problematic.

Convenient for those who'd prefer that the fact that there's a problem with the behavior of some trans activists remain hidden though, no?