Urgent: banning gender identity conversion

[Pratchet]

www.buzzfeed.com/patrickstrudwick/gay-cures-could-be-banned-under-a-new-law-in-the-uk?origin=shp&utm_term=.nw24d18NQk#.keZANE7n3Y
Homosexuality 'conversion cures' must be banned,

They are sneaking in 'gender identity' to the law so that ONLY AFFIRMATION will be sllowed. 'Watch and wait' could be banned as conversion therapy. Kids need our help.

This legislation must be restricted to homosexuality, to allow childrenntime to become happy in their changing bodies. Help.

Another view

Australia Presents a Gold Standard of Care for Trans and Gender Diverse Children
OCTOBER 1, 2017 / GROWINGUPTRANSGENDER

growinguptransgender.com/2017/10/01/australian-gold-standard-of-care-for-trans-children/

This week Australia’s Royal Children’s Hospital Gender Service has launched the “Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines for Trans and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents”. These guidelines are compiled by the leading Australian experts, based on the best and most current evidence from around the world. These guidelines are endorsed by ANZPATH (the Australian and New Zealand Professional Association for Transgender Health) and were launched at the recent ANZPATH conference. They are now the official guidelines for all health professionals working with transgender children in Australia.

The standard is clearly written and concise and it is definitely worth reading in full. Here, for convenience, please find below a brief synopsis of selected key extracts from the document. In Part 2 we will look at Why this standard matters, and why it should be adopted in the UK NHS.

Australian Standards of Care and Treatment Guidelines for Trans and Gender Diverse Children and Adolescents (pdf)

Listen to the voices of young people who identify as trans or non-binary.

www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-5926807/Are-children-young-11-really-capable-making-life-changing-decisions-gender.html

I think the question posed by the headline is the wrong questions. The question should be do young people understand their own sense of their gender identity?

If you talk to young trans people I thing you will conclude they do. The article gives a voice to young trans people and it is non judgmental.

Yeah, we're already discussing that on another thread. It's not the big fluffy gotcha you think it is. In fact, it's a frighteningly telling exposure of the lies these kids have been fed, in one case by a homophobic mother.

thread:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3299393-Trans-Children-in-their-own-words

The article gives a voice to young trans people and it is non judgmental.

How judgemental or not the article is is irrelevant to medical ethics.

How young people ‘feel’ about it is not the driver of medical ethics.

It’s is grossly unethical to place a healthy child on puberty blockers. These drugs are harmful. Their effects are not reversible.

Children are being lied to:
they cannot change sex
Puberty blockers are not a harmful pause button.
They are not ‘born in the wrong body.’

They need supportive therapy to come to terms with the perfectly normal body they have and the perfect normal gender presentation they have and to understand that the societal narrative around gender is toxic. These kids are not broken, society is. They are fine as they are. To medicate and then subject them to surgery when there’s nothing wrong with them is grossly unethical.

HilaryMGSDC

Do you think those children all understand that they can't change sex? Do you think they understand that they can only ever outwardly resemble the opposite sex, but will still remain the sex they were born?

These young people are being sold a lie. They are being told that they can change sex. You will always be the sex you were born. All these people who are lying to children about this need to stop. This is child abuse.

The question should be do young people understand their own sense of their gender identity?

What is gender identity and why do you think it is so important when it has no material reality? Sex is real. Gender isn't.

Hilary: do you seriously think people have an opposite sex brain in their body? Honestly, without the word salad and the faux concern.

Gender is just all the societal crap society hangs on each sex as an expectation.

We are supposed to be breaking it down, not solidifying and codifying it.

Hilary: do you believe humans can change sex?

The Montgomery ruling on informed consent is interesting.
'The judgment therefore means that doctors must share all such material risks, as well as any to which it would be reasonable for them to think the individual patient would attach significance'
A doctor has a duty not just to place a young person on a pathway but to ensure they understand all the ramifications of that and the alternatives available. Consent must be informed and given the experimental nature of prescribing puberty blockers I expect legal cases in the future.

Lots of questions here asking my opinion on many different things. I will break down my responses but first I would like to say that I have only stated the position of the professional experts who are working to the agreed care pathway for those diagnosed with Gender Incongruence (Gender Dysphoria) as stated on this thread in my previous posts.

We are discussing here about banning conversion therapy with regard to sexuality and gender identity.

From the comments on this thread it appears the majority would agree that banning conversion therapy to change a person's sexuality is agreed. The consensus being that an individuals sexuality cannot be change by psychological intervention. But, it is also apparent from the comments that several participants disagree with banning conversion therapy for people with a gender identity different from their sex as assigned at birth.

To elaborate my view I need to clarify some terms so you can understand my reasoning

Sexual Identity
Sexual Identity involves the level of comfort with, or range of acceptance of, an individual’s biological sex at birth. It is developed during puberty and becomes more apparent as teenagers start to feel sexual attraction. Curiosity about sex is a normal part of human development.

Sexual Orientation
Whereas sexual identity refers to an individual’s comfort level with his or her own biological sex, sexual orientation focuses on the biological sex of the person who an individual is sexually attracted to. There are three options (within the gender binary) that fall under the classification of sexual orientation. They are heterosexual, bisexual, and homosexual. Heterosexuals are attracted to people of the opposite biological sex, homosexuals are attracted to those of the same biological sex, and bisexuals report being equally attracted to both. If we include attraction out of the binary their are further definitions of attraction including, Pansexual attracted to all gender identities, Skoliosexual attracted to Transgender / Gender Identities outside the Binary, Asexual no sexual attraction, and Romantic Attraction attracted to individuals

Gender Identity
Gender identity is “the degree of acceptance or discomfort which a person manifests in terms of behavioral and emotional characteristics expected for a person, according to biological sex, to show within the interaction with other people”.

Conversion Therapy
Conversion therapy is an umbrella term for a therapeutic approach, or any model or individual viewpoint that demonstrates an assumption that any sexual orientation or gender identity is inherently preferable to any other, and which attempts to bring about a change of sexual orientation or gender identity, or seeks to suppress an individual’s expression of sexual orientation or gender identity on that basis.

My View on gender and sexuality and conversion therapy

SEX and GENDER
The terms sex and gender are used by people interchangeably to mean male or female.

I am using the term SEX as biological sex as determined by sex chromosomes, genes, primary and secondary sex characteristics.

I am using the term GENDER to mean Men, Male or Women, Female or Non-Binary Gender.

I am using the term GENDER IDENTITY to mean a persons internal sense of gender.

For the majority of people their gender identity will be the same as their biologically determined sex. Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth.

By the age of three to four most children display behaviors and select activities typical of their sex, but that is not always the case. Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with.

For those that fit in with society’s expectations for their biological sex the meaning of gender probably will never be questioned. After all, they fit the mold. Those who are identified as gender non-conforming will display cross gender preferences atypical of society expectations for their assigned gender.

Gender non-conforming children may or may not develop a gender identity different to their assigned sex. This does not mean they will be diagnosed with the condition gender incongruence (Gender Dysphoria). They may be masculine girls or feminine boys or develop a homosexual identity

Only those children who are insistently and persistently stating they are not a boy or girl knowing this is their sex, who go on to develop a gender identity different to their assigned sex which continues over a period of several months or years into puberty tanner stage 2 will be diagnosed with the condition gender incongruence.

Even though gender diversity has been documented across cultures and recorded throughout history it is still not easy for those who do not fit in with what society deems as ‘normal’. Individuals who identify with a gender different from their own sex can decide to change their gender expression to match the gender they identify with, either superficially with hair styles, behaviours, and clothing choices, or more permanently with hormone therapy or surgery.

For those teens that question their sexual orientation, Sexual Identity or Gender Identity it could lead to coming out to family and friends which in turn could result in acceptance, celebration, or rejection, feelings of isolation, and depression

According to researchers, sexual orientation, and sexual identity is influenced by biological, genetic, or hormonal factors during critical stages of development. From a social and cultural context how an individual expresses his or her sexual orientation or gender identity is associated with the type of environment he or she was raised in, which would not only take into account social and cultural features but also religious and political elements as well.

Psychiatrist and psychologists informed through research found that those who wished to alter a person’s sexual identity, sexuality or gender identity, using psychological techniques failed. This is because the core identity of an individual cannot be altered.

The psychiatrist and psychologists agreed that homosexuality was a natural part of an individual’s development and that conversion therapy should be banned

Psychiatrist and psychologists also agreed that sexual identity and gender identity were a natural part of an individual’s development and that conversion therapy should be banned.

Research has found that the most successful treatment to improve outcomes for those diagnosed with gender incongruence (Gender Dysphoria) was for them to be accepted by society as the sex appropriate for their gender identity.

I agree with those who wish to legislate to ban conversion therapy for homosexuality and gender identity.

Hilary you didn't explain what you mean by gender - male/female is sex

Bowlofbabelfish
do you believe humans can change sex?

How do you define
SEX

Sex is complex, and it most definitely is not binary!

• How many different types of Human Chromosome Sex are there?

• Female / Intersex XX & Male / Intersex XY

• Female / Intersex XO, XXX, XXXX, XXXXX,

• Male / Intersex XXY, XXXY, XYY

• Intersex conditions
• Not XX and Not XY 1 in 1,666 births
• Klinefelter (XXY) 1 in 1,000 births
• Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome 1 in 13,000 births
• Partial Androgen Insensitivity Syndrome 1 in 130,000 births
• Classical Congenital Adrenal Hyperplasia 1 in 13,000 births
• Late Onset Adrenal Hyperplasia 1 in 66 individuals
• Vaginal Agenesis 1 in 6,000 births
• Ovotestes 1 in 6,000 births
• Idiopathic (no discernible medical cause) 1 in 110,000 births
• Iatrogenic (caused by medical treatment) no estimate
• 5 Alpha Reductase Deficiency no estimate
• Mixed Gonadal Dysgenesis no estimate
• Complete Gonadal Dysgenesis 1 in 150,000 births
• Hypospadias (in perineum or penile shaft) 1 in 2,000 births
• Hypospadias (between corona and tip of penis) 1 in 770 births
• Total number of people whose bodies differ from standard male or female 1 in 100 births
• Total number of people receiving surgery to “normalize” genital appearance 1 or 2 in 1,000 births

www.isna.org/faq/frequency

Do I believe you can alter your bodies genetic, chromosomal sex?
No, But I do believe that none of us are 100% male or female. We all have the duality of developing gonads and primary sexual characteristics of either sex, that we could developed secondary sex characteristics as male or female.

Human sexual development of primary and secondary sex characteristics is dependent on the interaction of hormonal influences whilst we are in the fetal stages and at puberty. These developments are not binary as proven by intersex conditions.

We know very little about the development of the human brain or how it influences our internal feelings of self, our core identities. We only know how we as individuals feel about our sex and gender identity, so we cannot really know how others feel about theirs.

I am more willing to accept others for who they are, by the actions they take and the way they relate to others that by their chromosomal sex.

We are all unique and that is what makes this world beautiful.

NewbieSpartacus

Hilary you didn't explain what you mean by gender - male/female is sex

You have not read my post fully

HilaryMGSDC

Are you aware of Bowl's proffessional experience & qualifications?

Hilary
There are a few problems with the definitions and descriptions you have used.

Sexual Identity
Sexual Identity involves the level of comfort with, or range of acceptance of, an individual’s biological sex at birth.
Since humans cannot change sex, would I be right to assume that if an individual was suffering great discomfort with their sex, that therapy would be aimed at enabling that person to live comfortably with their body?

Gender Identity
Gender identity is “the degree of acceptance or discomfort which a person manifests in terms of behavioral and emotional characteristics expected for a person, according to biological sex, to show within the interaction with other people”.
In the 21st century, I'm not sure why this is even an issue. What interactions with others depend on your sex? Obviously sexual relationships, but since both heterosexual and homosexual relationships are acceptable, I really don't understand what you're getting at here.

Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with.
Really? What is your evidence for this? Many of us never identify with a gender. I certainly don't. And children of three or four are just starting to learn about the world - I can't imagine anyone of that age having contemplated the issue enough to identify with a gender. But since you define gender using sex categories, do you just mean that children know what sex they are by three or four?

Sex is binary. Intersex people are male or female.

OldCrone
There are a few problems with the definitions and descriptions you have used

I see no problem with the descriptions I stated in my post. The post was intended to set the basis for the reasoning behind my response to earlier questions posed.
Sexual Identity
Gender Identity
Children are also aware by age three or four of what gender they identify with

I have stated my view on conversion therapy.

You have your view and I have mine, I will let the readers make their own decision.

The problem is basic. You said sex is not binary. It is binary. The rest was just padding to try to cover the mistake.

I’m not sure if I’m misunderstanding Hilary

You said Through the socialization process, children are taught what is expected, and accepted, of them as a boy or girl virtually from birth

To me, this sounds like the issue. Why are we still teaching children what behaviours are acceptable for boys or girls?

Are you stating that boys are / should be taught that only ‘manly’ things are expected and accepted for them ie blue toys, dumper trucks, and no crying?
And for girls only pink toys, dolls, and being soft?

Are we really still at the stage of sugar and spice and all things nice are what little girls are made of?

Sex is binary.

I’m well aware of the various interested/DSD conditions- everyone in every category you’ve written there is either Male or female.

Intersex people are not some sort of middle ground - they are either Male or female.

What I mean by sex is very, very simple. I mean Male or female.

can humans change sex?

It’s a yes or no answer.

You have your view and I have mine, I will let the readers make their own decision.

You do that, Hilary. Your comments illustrate the problems with the ideology quite clearly. The intersex waffle is a transparent attempt to muddy the waters.

You are aware that the intersex community have repeatedly asked that proponents of trans ideology leave them out of their claims? It's not considered good form to drag them in.

Sex is a binary. There is no third sex. And you are by no means the only scientist on this thread. People who underestimate Bowl soon find themselves struggling.

There is no opinion on sex, by the way. It’s factual.

For something to be a matter of opinion it needs to have a degree of subjectivity. Ethics for example, you can argue - is there an absolute moral truth? Well there’s a societal consensus but it’s not measurable or objective.

Sex is objective. It’s observable, measurable, a physical state of being. It is not a matter of opinion.

This idea that there is no truth, only opinions, is a deeply toxic one. It’s probably got its origins in our current cultural state, with 24 hours news, the internet, rampant individualism and lack of critical thought.

Sex is not a matter of opinion. Biology doesn’t care about our opinions, any more than gravity does. It just IS.

So: can humans change sex?