Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Another note on my ex (I honestly can't think why I am thinking about him on this thread, really I can't): he was also very fond of the line that all of his worst behaviour was due to his reacting to situations that he described as "not of his making". Things he "never asked for". Things he had no choice about. Things were never his fault.

He needed me to understand that he was just reacting - to his parents, to me, to everyone who wronged him - and that his relentless emotional abuse was therefore not within his control either. Everyone else was at fault.

He was also entirely unable to understand the concept that other people had needs that differed from his own.

There are a lot of men like that out there. I expect many of the women in FWR have met similar types.

If you would stop attacking us, then there's no reason to want you shut down

Says the person who wants to shut down a forum of 12 million women, because 'my wife...' something or other

12 million bloody women!

Twelve million.

Because 'my wife'. Me. My. Me.

You really couldn't make this up. The sense of entitlement and utter self obsession is remarkable.

Same here Newbie.

@SophoclesTheFox

He was also entirely unable to understand the concept that other people had needs that differed from his own.

My ex's complaint was that I wasn't making him happy 😂 Like it should be my life's work 😂

Another out of the fog link that's relevant, Sophocles
outofthefog.website/top-100-trait-blog/2015/10/30/blaming

(i love that website)

If you would only do as you're told, dammit, we wouldn't have to punish you!

As transparent as a curtainless bay window.

As transparent as a curtainless bay window.

"Look what you made me do!"

NewbieSpartacus & bless i got confirmation from MN that we can say transwomen are men / transwomen are male
"It's very much a case-by-case basis, and it's entirely dependent on tone and context. If it's a civil debate about biology, and used to express a specific point, then that's quite different, we feel, to belittling an individual (which we'd likely consider a personal attack).

As transparent as a curtainless bay window.

Teehee.

There are a lot of men like that out there. I expect many of the women in FWR have met similar types.

Yes, yes there are. Yes, yes we have. And yes, yes we recognise them wherever and whenever they decide to pop up in our lives.

I think most women have a spidey sense for it. Born from experience.

Thank you Waddle!

So i assume it's ok to say
I would prefer the open changing rooms that my 10yr old DD changes in for swimming to be female only/single sex, which means I dont want transwomen to use them because transwomen are male.

So in the context of a civil debate, expressed with a dispassionate, factual tone, not directed at any individual, and used to express one of the main specific points in this whole debate, we are permitted to say:

Trans women are men. Trans women are male.

I do hope so.

It's important to know which words we are still permitted to use here and in which contexts, so we can decide whether MN is still a viable platform for discussing women's rights.

Yes, Waddle, or at least that's my understanding. At present...

Thanks for the interesting thread. Agree with the DARVO said upthread, o my, that is so clear. Shutting down a whole site, because you don't like what is said or wanting to shut it down because people outside mumsnet are waking up to the fact they don't want unisex services and facilities for everything?

Wanting to shut down a huge forum with 12 million unique vistors a month (mostly women), because your wife has read ideas here that you don't approve of, is a bit extreme and everybody can see that.

It makes you look like an abuser.

Nobody who employs such tactics can pretend they have any legitimate part in civil debate.

So, in this thread alone we have Super trying to "encourage" women to watch what they say because the police might investigate them for having opinions, and Damn announcing that they're determined to have Mumsnet shut down - not just the Feminism board, the entire site - because their ex found support here and stopped doing what Damn wanted her to. A large forum covering a diverse range of topics with 12 million unique users, and Damn wants it shut down because they're angry with their ex wife.

Are you seeing this, lurkers? Journalists and MPs in particular, but also the general public? Do you see this behavior and do you understand what it means in terms of whether it's wise to allow people who think the way Damn does to influence governmental and organizational policies?

I think the reason that a lot of women are trying to stay out of this debate is that they're afraid of what will happen if they challenge people who think the way Damn does. And I think we have to do it anyway.

Lots of people have taken note.

But then she found Mumsnet.

butthen

In no way do I want this forum to be shut down I think it does amazing things in supporting people and it allows you all to share your views even if they are not mine. You all have the right to have them as long as they are not personal in nature I think we should be big enough to expect others point of view

I hope Damn's ex isn't still here and having to read that outpouring of rage, but if she is , ,

Gee...thank you Bespin for allowing us an opinion and sharing our own points of view. We would have never known that until you pointed it out.

People are also allowed to have views that are "personal in nature". Expressing them may or may not be polite in a given set of circumstances, but suggesting that maybe people ought not to be allowed to have thoughts that other people don't like is pretty damn creepy.