Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

I'll post it again and highlight the bit where it says "isolation". Anyone wanting to supervise your speech should be removed from your life asap.

Wow, this thread is an incredibly useful eye-opener.

I'm just glad that the new guidance has engendered a climate of civilised and respectful debate.

Honestly it's going SO well. I think MNHQ should run some kind of change management course.

Certain

my ex and I were working through a civilized break-up ... until
she got suckered into the MN anti-trans board

Long before the internet existed, my abusive ex would tell me that any idea I had that he didn't like had been put there by one of my friends. It was one of the most insulting things that had ever been said to me.

Misogynists seem to see their partners as empty vessels with no minds of their own.

And yes, you should have reported your wife's attack to the police, Damnthat, but no way are you a woman or you would realise that we aren't like small children falling in with a bad crowd.

Misogynists seem to see their partners as empty vessels with no minds of their own.

Absolutely. Well said.

The husband of a friend of mine blamed me for putting ideas into her head. He threw me down the stairs. She was divorcing him because he'd put her in hospital several times, but he couldn't believe she could make such a decision without my influence.

God that man hated women. I heard he died, alone and alcoholic, a few months back. His DC hadn't seen him for well over a decade. Couldn't happen to a nicer bloke.

PurpleCrowbar
Mrs Damn rejected 'everything she'd learned about transexuality', did she?

Presumably meaning everything Damn had told her. Bit like when I was seven or so I evaluated further information & concluded that 'everything I had learned' about Father Christmas might benefit from a critical review.

Making snap judgements based on zero information again. Par for the course, I suppose. No, I didn't tell her very much, because I thought it would be much better for both of us if she got an unbiassed picture. Which she did, at first. She read books and articles — she passed some of them on to me, and I learned from her. It was a shared journey into the unknown. It was a journey neither of us wanted to make, but we were making it together. She came with me when I went to see my GP, and again when I went for my first psych appointment. It was OK — for both of us.
But then she found Mumsnet.

But I don't want MN shut down out of revenge. That would be pointless — it's all in the past now ... water under the bridge. The reason I want Mumsnet shut down is because of the harm you are doing to other people — other families, trans kids, kids of trans, partners, parents, and friends as well as trans people.

If you would stop attacking us, then there's no reason to want you shut down. But you have made it clear that you won't.

But it is your choice. That's the big differences between trans people and the anti-trans movement.

We don't choose to be trans. You do choose to be transphobic.

Classic DARVO there, Damn. The threats, the violence all go one way, mate.

Misogynists seem to see their partners as empty vessels with no minds of their own.

Don't they just? And, in my experience, they are completely unable to hide it. You'd think they'd at least try, but they never do.

I second that DARVO.

We don't choose to be trans.

We don't choose to be women and girls at high risk from male violence and sex based discrimination which is why we continue to fight to keep our protections

So be trans. Celebrate it. Work towards making life easier for those who have difficulty in living as their born sex.

Leave the woman stuff to us. Not your circus.

Still on the first page of this thread.

@Massivelyouting

I posted links about the language of Sinn Fein and how they used that language to move to the mainstream. I see this as similar.

hmmnnn I really don't understand your point. If anything, I see GC feminists as having been forced into the same position as Sinn Fein, who were demonised and not allowed to speak on behalf of half the population of NI.

Shut down MN FWR? Meh

Shutdown a forum which is support for breastfeeding womyn, pregnant womyn, has a supportive LGBT children board, special needs board, jobs board, supportive help for all sorts of parents? Telly addicts!!!

Well that says all anybody needs to know

Blimey

The reason I want Mumsnet shut down

What a sense of entitlement.

Massive thank you to all the sensible MNers who have been here for me and vast numbers of other women over the years

Mumsnet is consciousness raising for the 21st century. That's why some people want it shut down. Remember what consciousness raising achieved last time round?

Someone was never told

'I want doesnt get'

Were they...

I'm sure this has already been discussed but despite the many threads dedicated to the new guidelines I'm still unclear. Probably because they are so vague and we can't see what people have been deleted for. So I'm asking - again - here; because Kate has posted here to say we can state facts. I have been led to believe that's not the case; unless some facts are more factual than others. Please, someone, clarify for me. I use the term transwomen, personally, I find it's polite and conveys meaning adequately. That's an opinion btw, because often words have connotations and others will disagree, so it's not a factual debate. However, I will not say trans women are women, because that is factually inaccurate. And I don't know if I'm allowed to say trans women are men, which some may find offensive, but is biologically a fact? Not being facetious, I honestly don't think this has been cleared up.

Im with you newbie

If you would stop attacking us, then there's no reason to want you shut down

If we stop nagging then you won't have to make us shut up?

Wow.

If you're so hacked off with Mumsnet, Damn, why are you still here?

Hey Damn.

I don’t know if you’ve been looking at many threads today but Snappity, Daim and I have made some real headway.

We all agree that women who have issues sharing spaces with transwomen should have the right to segregated spaces.

Would be great to have you on board with us too if you agree?

what attacks Damnthatonestakentryanother2?

understanding that humans cannot change sex is not an attack

understanding that the introduction of a transwoman to a previously all female space changes it to a mixed sex space is not an attack

understanding that this undermines safeguards built on the premise of single sex spaces is not an attack

wanting privacy from men is not an attack