Reality check

[Pratchet]

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Feminism is the political movement for the liberation of women.
I am curious if there are other political movements in the UK that are constantly accused of hate crimes by the opposition?
Is this just UK politics as usual or is it misogyny?

Sorry light

I think id gone into a stupor after reading the post at 14:12

yes, I don't expect I'm the only person who felt a surge of sympathy for ex Mrs Damn after reading that post

if you're still here

yes, I don't expect I'm the only person who felt a surge of sympathy for ex Mrs Damn after reading that post

if you're still here

Can I just go back to the suggestion that the police are monitoring MN in case a crime has been committed, because I think that is pure bunkum...

The police have very limited resources to investigate actual crimes, never mind to gather evidence in advance of a crime being committed in case it should more accurately be categorised as a hate crime. Any pro-active monitoring of the internet / social media is focused on serious / organised crime, counter-terrorism, child sexual abuse...not women saying things that some people find mean.

Think about how long it took to arrest Anjem Choudry, who repeatedly marched and demonstrated and said on public record some atrocious things. The police really aren't going to shift resources away from dealing with this stuff to check that everything that OlennasWimple posts is in line with all relevant legislation.

The take away from the thread is not to be goaded into saying things that would likely result in a strike or ban, and provide handy screenshot material to beat MN with. But please dont' worry about police involvement (unless you are a genuine criminal, in which case, be very afraid!)

thebewilderness - I think the Far Right is often accused of hate crimes, though the Far Left could equally be accused of the same but seems to get more of a free pass

That’s a really interesting post, Damn.

Very illuminating. Thank you for your candour.

It’s not often we see such a direct expression that it’s all about shutting down women.

Specifically, about shutting down women who help other women going through tough times, at that.

All the same, I'm sorry that you were physically attacked, and glad that your current relationship with your ex is on friendly terms for your children's sake.

SuperDandy if the police are going to be looking at my devices, because I posted a chorus from "The Emperors New Clothes" in a thread a couple of days back & I'm also planning to attend a feminist do in Plymouth soon, can they first have a look at why my cordless drill always loses charge in the middle of drilling a hole for the last screw to finish a job? And seeing as so many new posters in FWR are so good at distorting reality can they also go back 15 years and stop me cc'ing my boss into an email that was a bit rude about him (I still cringe).

Super.

This thread needs to be pinned under the new guidelines; it really is an education and affirmation.

Inciting hatred is the obvious one. Someone who chooses to follow a religion is protected: someone who is born trans is not.

Both are protected.
Someone who has the protected characteristic of religious belief is protected. Someone who has the protected characteristic of gender reassignment is protected.

Incitement of hatred/ discrimination against either is illegal.

How is someone trans not protected by the law? They have the protected characteristic of gender reassignment.

I’m not sure what you mean by ‘born trans.’

Mumsnet has supported so many women during break ups that ‘LTB’ is probably one of the very first MN acronyms new members learn.

I suspect there are vast numbers of angry exes out there, many of whom have had revenge fantasies about closing down the forum.

The problem with transwomen making posts declaring this very thing is it does very little to convince average mumsnetters that opening up women’s sex segregated spaces to transwomen is a good thing. Quite the opposite, I reckon.

Damn, thanks for that post. Clarifies things.

Sorry you were assaulted and glad to hear you're on better terms with your ex.

I'd imagine that they're gonna catch on soon too (if they haven't already) and start posting as "transpeople"

Thanks for your response Bowl. I'm genuinely sorry that you felt an edge of intimidation or threat from my raising the point. Absolutely none was intended to you or to any other poster.

I take your point about how would they know you were on mn etc. I suppose I was thinking that since GC was strongly associated right now with mn that it's the sort of educated guess that's night be made and then have to be followed up.

Olenna, again, the scenario could be a false accusation with malicious intent, but I take your point about limited resources of police. On the other hand, the fact there is bad shit going on does not mean that lesser shit is never investigated. And they have been known to plough enormous resources over long periods of time into investigation of activist groups.

For the record, I am NOT being goady. It's a perfectly valid conversation to have and some people are managing to talk to me without insinuating that I'm a goady fucker or abuser, which is nice. I have nothing to do with Damn, just happen to be on the same thread.

Wow, it’s quite something to see Damn actually admit that they want to shut down Mumsnet!

I imagine they are regretting that because the optics are dreadful!

for Mrs Damn and for their daughters too.

Wow, it’s quite something to see Damn actually admit that they want to shut down Mumsnet!

I guess Damn has found common ground with the men's rights activists then. Which is unusual for a woman.

My ex hated Mumsnet.

It says quite a lot when someone does, I find.

The cat appears to have Damns tongue atm.

yes, gendercritter.

My ex used to cast up to me in arguments that I was being brainwashed by mumsnet. Some men really don’t care for the idea of women talking amongst themselves.

We might get ideas!

Mrs Damn rejected 'everything she'd learned about transexuality', did she?

Presumably meaning everything Damn had told her. Bit like when I was seven or so I evaluated further information & concluded that 'everything I had learned' about Father Christmas might benefit from a critical review.

Also, echoes of Swim England & their 'educating'. Some people do love to school women in rightthink.

Mrs Damn rejected 'everything she'd learned about transexuality', did she?

Presumably meaning everything Damn had told her. Bit like when I was seven or so I evaluated further information & concluded that 'everything I had learned' about Father Christmas might benefit from a critical review.

Also, echoes of Swim England & their 'educating'. Some people do love to school women in rightthink.

My ex hated me having any female friends at all. Long before MN.

One of many reasons they are an ex, the abusive behaviour was just too much.

Funny how they just can't let it go...ticks every box on the power and control wheel.

Yy Sophocles, 100%