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Feminism: Sex and gender discussions

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Original poster

Reality check

385 replies

Pratchet · 28/06/2018 06:54

It's shit but I think we have to be pragmatic. And disclaimer: the below does not refer to all trans people or all transadvocates.

Imagine how many pairs of TRA eyes are trawling every single post on Mumsnet about trans issues. There are the resources, the legal support and the tech experience there to build a civil case, or find the one post that tips over into breaching IPSO and Ofcom guidelines, that can lead to sanction, compensation or worse for MN.

They don't even need eyes. They can build algorithms that trawl mumsnet for them. They want that log of complaints or posts that will enable legal action, criminal action or any other official sanction. There is no lull or respite from this. Mumsnet is the only mass crossover media which enables conversation on this issue which is not trans-agenda driven. It's the only one left that promotes a feminist view. The drive to stop this conversation will not stop, or rest, ever.

And who will they complain to? They will be complaining to people who have had 'trans awareness training' and bodies which have extremely active awareness networks, looking for offensive material. Going back years, through the media, including the BBC and ITV at the highest levels, police, monitoring organisations, government, the civil service, about how vulnerable trans people are, about how oppressed trans people are. What are Mumsnet's chances of coming out the other side and being able to allow this conversation to go on?

We all know this, but it's actually real. It's not theoretical.

Don't do the TRAs' job for them. Please don't jump. Please don't throw yourselves in front of the train. This is David and Goliath, we are amateurs all, new to the field, up against an army of well-prepared professionals. But we can do this.

Here are some links.

www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0009/112500/dip-statement.pdf
www.ofcom.org.uk/__data/assets/pdf_file/0019/109711/consultation-diversity-inclusion-plan.pdf
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/about/media-interactions/
www.allabouttrans.org.uk/a-meet-up-with-the-independent-press-standards-organisation/
www.out-law.com/en/articles/2018/february/uk-to-review-laws-on-offensive-online-communications/
www.gov.uk/government/news/home-secretary-announces-new-national-online-hate-crime-hub

Reality check
OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
TellsEveryoneRealFacts · 29/06/2018 12:09

Just popping in whilst waiting for boss to show.

Still no receipts of MN Kampf yet?

SophoclesTheFox · 29/06/2018 12:22

Damn’s posts are so on point i’m almost starting to think they’re an agent provocateur using the duluth wheel as as a cheat sheet.

Compare and contrast:

One side of the debate reports posts on every medium available, gets the forum rules changed and openly shares that they would rather the whole forum was lost than that a group of women should be able to share their thoughts.

And the other side positively begs for no one to report posts because they want them to remain in all their glory, so everyone can see what people who hold the opposite opinion actually think and be able to understand both sides fully.

It’s marvellous.

WichBitchHarpyTerfThatsMe · 29/06/2018 12:26

Bloody genius Sophocles!

Bowlofbabelfish · 29/06/2018 12:28

Bloody hell prawn the comments under that article are heartbreaking. So much misery. :(

haXXor · 29/06/2018 13:07

The accusation that our gender critical activism is a game to us is purest DARVO. We are fighting for privacy, dignity, and safety in spaces where males would constitute an elevated threat to us. Safeguarding is not a game, it is life-and-death to women and children.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 13:16

Safeguarding is not a game, it is life-and-death to women and children. Thanks for your succinct post, HaXXor.

Transactivists identify as women. They appear to have no concern about or for us. They portray us and see us as the enemy which is wholly inconsistent with any claim to be women just like us cunty types.

Prawnofthepatriarchy · 29/06/2018 13:30

Aren't they, Bowl. I know a couple who went through this. It was horrible for his poor wife. There was sexual stuff she found degrading and revolting. It's now over 6 years later, and things havegradually improved (largely due to gentle but persistent family pressure from the grandparents and siblings) but there was a lot of misery and of course the DC were distressed and confused

What so upsets the rest of the family is that having caused all this pain and hardship, the MtF is obviously extremely unhappy and isolated in their new role. There have been no relationships in all the years since they transitioned, and no friends. Maybe the person concerned thinks it's been worth it, but from the outside the family say it looks like serious MH issues that were misguidedly attached to an identity crisis.

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 13:52

Current thread which is concerning:

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/3291922-Take-the-Gender-Identity-Disorder-self-test

Snappity · 29/06/2018 14:07

If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. - @LangCleg to @Damnthatonestakentryanother2

I keep reading here that trans people the ones trying to shut down debate, yet here is an example of a trans woman being told she shouldn't even quote the opposing argument so that she can dispute it.

Freedom of speech and debate works both ways. If someone says something on here it is not reasonable in my view for them to specify which other members can or cannot quote what they say and engage with them in response.

R0wantrees · 29/06/2018 14:13

All people have the right to choose who they speak to both in real life and online.

They have the right to say they do not wish contact.

Their request should be respected.

Snappity · 29/06/2018 14:16

There has actually been a lot of agreement on here in the last few days. We have come to a bit of a consensus that women who have issues sharing with transwomen should be able to access segregated spaces. That’s a big deal.

No we haven't.

UpstartCrow · 29/06/2018 14:18

Snappity Fri 29-Jun-18 14:07:12
If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. - @LangCleg to @Damnthatonestakentryanother2

I keep reading here that trans people the ones trying to shut down debate, yet here is an example of a trans woman being told she shouldn't even quote the opposing argument so that she can dispute it.

No Snappity, one poster asked another not to '@' them.
Quoting someone is different from sending them and email.

haXXor · 29/06/2018 14:18

LangCleg is one poster out odlf all of us and possibly feels that DamnThat is a GF. Not comparable to e.g. TERFhunter on Twitter actively trying to get GC accounts shut down.

Snappity · 29/06/2018 14:19

All people have the right to choose who they speak to both in real life and online.

They have the right to say they do not wish contact.

Their request should be respected.

So if I post a thread about how trans women are women and how badly it affects them when they are misgendered, I should be able to ask that no gender critical feminists contribute to the thread? Because that's where what you are saying leads us.

Floisme · 29/06/2018 14:29

Lang asked a specific poster not to address her directly or to try and engage her directly. I am quite sure that people following this thread can see why she did that, and I find it surprising if you don't.

Ineedacupofteadesperately · 29/06/2018 14:29

There is a difference between engaging a poster directly and speaking to them and contributing to a general discussion. I can't believe it is necessary to say this.....?!

Asking that someone not speak to you directly is not the same as saying no-one can comment in general on a thread (that's the whole point of threads on a forum really - to allow people to engage in a general rather than personal discussion).

I am making a general point, I am not naming any other posters in this comment. Just to be clear.

Waddlelikeapenguin · 29/06/2018 14:37

Damnthatonestakentryanother2
LangCleg
Women and girls are my priority. Always will be
Then why spend so much time and effort attacking trans people? Completely irrelevant

Damn is this a personal attack on Lang ?
I have seen no evidence of Lang acting as you describe.

PersonWithAVulva · 29/06/2018 14:47

So if I post a thread about how trans women are women and how badly it affects them when they are misgendered, I should be able to ask that no gender critical feminists contribute to the thread? Because that's where what you are saying leads us.

Yes, that is exactly the same as one person asking another person to not @ them Hmm

And yeah, you could ask that if you wanted. I seem to remember that went down well not too long ago when some TRA wanted a 'trans supportive' thread and told others not to comment. As it turned out, a fair few transsexual people posted on there too, but they were not the 'right kind' of trans unfortunately so the OP ignored them too

UpstartCrow · 29/06/2018 14:55

Snappity Fri 29-Jun-18 14:19:53
All people have the right to choose who they speak to both in real life and online.

this is the preferred option.

=====================
@Snappity
All people have the right to choose who they speak to both in real life and online.

Not this one.

If you misrepresent this answer again it just shows you arent bothering to read other peoples posts.

Snappity · 29/06/2018 15:08

Free speech on Mumsnet is predicated on debate. Telling a person most likely to disagree not to quote you or engage with what has been said is not debate. This isn't about individuals. It's about not stifling debate.

Rufustheyawningreindeer · 29/06/2018 15:14

lang can speak to anyone she damn well pleases

She also has the right to tell people that she doesnt want to talk to...that she will not be engaging with them

dragongirlx · 29/06/2018 15:15

Asking one person not to to @them or quote them is not telling them not to debate the issues. They have just asked, and I say asked because the person can choose to ignore them, not to do this.

The debate can still continue with the many other wonderful people on here who are willing to engage.

massivelyouting · 29/06/2018 15:17

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

LangCleg · 29/06/2018 15:47

Snappity

I keep reading here that trans people the ones trying to shut down debate, yet here is an example of a trans woman being told she shouldn't even quote the opposing argument so that she can dispute it

Hi Snappity. I think it is also clear that our views aren't simpatico. I find your contributions to FWR very goady and I prefer not to interact with you. If we find ourselves contributing to the same threads, please do not address me directly or quote my posts in order to engage me. This is a clear boundary. Please respect it. I won't be responding further. All the best.

UnderHerEye · 29/06/2018 16:32

And it seems we are back to the problem of boundaries not being respected- LangCleg has clearly laid out her boundaries here, it’s very telling when others can’t accept those boundaries isn’t it.