Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

I find the use of the word "girls" by some transgender males incredibly bizarre.

Totally.

And in response to the person with male genitalia being absolutely FINE in changing rooms with young naked girls...in the words of Mandy Rice Davies he would say that wouldn't he.

I know the conversation has moved on now but in response to the original post, according to lesbian friends of mine it's only men who buy DIVA now.
You know, those men who think they're lesbians.
FFS

So it seems like the time span where it was possible for lesbians to have the space, ability and freedom from harrassment to connect with other lesbians in penis free zones only lasted for about 20 years.

Much progressive.

The thing is that it shouldn't be up to an adult male person to decide whether or not it's OK for them to be around other people's naked female children.

How are young lesbians meant to figure out their sexuality when they're constantly having to negotiate boundaries with born males?

It's gaslighting.

What I find strange is the assumption that accepting trans women into the lesbian community somehow means that lesbian women are obliged to sleep with them. Do you really think a TRA on Twitter speaks for all trans women?

A woman might get propositioned by a tattooed lesbian when she doesn't find tattoos attractive. Would she feel obliged to sleep with her just because she's a lesbian? She would be perfectly entitled to say ' no thanks tattoos aren't my thing'.

Same goes with a trans woman, as NatLuc said some people are cool with it and some people aren't.

It's unfair to say the entire lesbian community should shun trans women because a few people don't want to sleep with them.

Feminism means equality of the sexes, it's not about excluding anyone

That's 3rd wave neoliberal claptrap.

Feminism is about FEMALE liberation. It's in the name for chrissakes.

The thing is that it shouldn't be up to an adult male person to decide whether or not it's OK for them to be around other people's naked female children.

Personally I don't like that some parents think it is acceptable to undress their children in front of any adults, male or female, other than the children's family.

The thing is that it shouldn't be up to an adult male person to decide whether or not it's OK for them to be around other people's naked female children

Exactly. And the fact that they feel that's not a problem demonstrates an utter lack of empathy.

If you knew that it made women uncomfortable, would you stop, NatLuc?

Or would you carry on?

It doesn't matter who is sleeping with whom, daim.

The point is that there is such a thing as a lesbian community, a lesbian scene - and it's not possible to have that with males present because it changes the dynamic.

It's not hard to grasp, really.

SophoclesTheFox

If you were in a changing room which you were legally entitled to be in and I came along and asked you to leave because you were making me feel uncomfortable, would you leave?

3rd wave neoliberal fauxminism has nothing in common with 2nd wave feminism. The philosophical differences are massive.

Neoliberals view everyone as a distinct individual that makes individual choices and doesn't analyse systems of power or how these systems affect groups of people. There is simply no class analysis in 'we want equality' feminism.

The obvious question here is 'equal to who?' Men? You want to play within the male system of power? You want to be like men? Men are your standard for whether things are good or not?

2nd wave feminism is about systems of power and sees class analysis as central. Women are a sex class in 2nd wave feminism that are oppressed based on that sex class. 2nd wave feminism is about LIBERATION of females from male systems of power.

We don't want to be equal to men. We want to be liberated the whole male supremacist system.

It would help if you read second wave works because the 3rd wave has basically turned into a men's rights movement.

I think the next wave of feminism will be a return to the principles of the second wave. I think transactivism is going to make a lot of women angry and this is already happening. Transgenderism has caused many women who have nothing to do with second wave feminism to understand women are a sex class and are dispossessed precisely because they belong to the sex class female.

That's not what I asked daim.

I asked a very specific question, which was not about anyone being asked to leave, but was about what weight NatLuc puts on other people's feelings versus their own.

If you scroll back up, you'll see the question right there, just as I wrote it.

I find the use of the word "girls" by some transgender males incredibly bizarre.

You see, I don't. Because although the old fashioned transsexuals often tried to identify with women and actually care that we don't want men in the shower with us, the great majority of the new type are very classically macho entitled males with a serious porn habit.

Of course they call themselves "girls". Their creepy sexual preoccupations are laid out all over the internet - in Reddit, blogs, in countless forums, where these "girls" are no more than wank fodder for themselves. The contempt they feel for us is all too clear.

I asked a very specific question, which was not about anyone being asked to leave, but was about what weight NatLuc puts on other people's feelings versus their own

I don't know about NatLuc but I have noticed a distinct reluctance for people to answer my questions so nowadays I am very selective which questions I choose to answer.

Men like to talk about femanism as though it were anything more than the corporate misogynist backlash against Feminism. You know, Feminism? The POLITICAL movement for the liberation of women?
Criminy!

It's unfair to say the entire lesbian community should shun trans women because a few people don't want to sleep with them

A few people?

I think it's safe to say the majority of (all) lesbians are attracted to women, not men who decide that they are women.

You can paint this situation however you want but someone with a penis is not a woman.

What I find strange is the assumption that accepting trans women into the lesbian community somehow means that lesbian women are obliged to sleep with them. Do you really think a TRA on Twitter speaks for all trans women?

They are beating Lesbians at the Pride Parades, daimbars.
All men need not be terrorists to terrorize a community. You really ought to be old enough to know that much.

Ah, so now we're supposed to pretend that the majority of lesbians like cock and it's only a small minority that doesn't?

It'll be interesting to see if we ever find a bridge that Daim considers too far when it comes to this issue.

@SophoclesTheFox you asked Nat if she would stop using the female changing room if she knew it made women uncomfortable.

The thing it Nat is entitled to use that changing room just as much as any other woman is by law.

Lesbian: Female homosexual.

Homosexual: Exclusively attracted to the same sex.

Female: of or denoting the sex that can bear offspring or produce eggs, distinguished biologically by the production of gametes (ova) which can be fertilized by male gametes.

I don't know about NatLuc but I have noticed a distinct reluctance for people to answer my questions so nowadays I am very selective which questions I choose to answer.

Fair enough, snappity - it's a hard question to answer I expect.

AAK, never mind angels dancing on the head of a pin, now we're counting the number of lesbians attracted to biological males. What a time to be alive!

Some of the arguments seem very over engineered.

If natal women who are only attracted to natal women want to form a group for natal women who are only attracted to natal women, why on earth shouldn’t they?
If trans women want to form a group with people of a specific sex or gender, why shouldn’t they?
If sexed bodies are significant to a specific context, why shouldn’t sexed bodies determine access.
TRAs never have a coherent argument for this!

The thing it Nat is entitled to use that changing room just as much as any other woman is by law.

Well there you are then. If the women and girls don't like taking off their clothes in front of a man they can stay home.

The thing it Nat is entitled to use that changing room just as much as any other woman is by law.

That's still not what I asked, daim.

I didn't ask who was entitled to what.

I asked whose feelings of discomfort are legitimate, and whose may be discounted.

But I think you know that.