Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

Anyone know any orgs who use the exemptions? There must be lots surely!

Anyone? Helllloooooo!

Its only been 40 minutes!!!

Have some bloody patience womyn!!!

Im sure someone will be alomg in a minute (not me...ive no idea)

Sorry Rufus

C’mon peeps!

At the moment any organisation that tries to use the exemptions gets pilloried on social media, threatened with legal action & often forced to make a grovelling apology.

I got this one rufus, the biggest one in the country that routinely uses the exceptions is the nhs though of course these are individual ccgs they use these in relation to transitioning employees who may provide intermate care for people who. Do not. Have capacity. Though this is usually done in collaboration with the employee and if it significantly impacts there role than they may wish to be placed on the employment at risk register and be redeployed or adapt. There role not to include this

Thanks Bespin. Gosh it’s a bit hard to read your post with all the rogue full stops in there!

So if I’m understanding you right, the NHS uses the exemptions so that people who require intimate care will always receive it from a same sex employee? Is it a blanket policy then?

Oh excellent

Thanks bespin

No that would be looked at by each ccg and there hr and legel team. So I can not say it is used at every ccg but I would hope most policies would take this into account and transition in most policies is in collaboration with the employee

So do you mean it’s a blanket policy in each ccg rather than and overall NHS blanket policy?

transition in most policies is in collaboration with the employee

What does this mean?

There are no blanket policies in the nhs there are only. National. Guidelines the polices on gender reassignment is written by each ccg and it Jay covers both patents and staff sometimes they are separate policies.

Jay = covers

Now that many of the councils, organizations, schools, and businesses have access to the correct list of protected characteristics in the EA it appears they are beginning to take action in that direction.
I would like to be a fly on the wall the next time they talk to whoever gave them the fraudulent list.

Ok thanks. So do the national guidelines recommend that each ccg applies the exemptions?

Sorry for all the questions, because you said that the NHS routinely uses the exemptions I’m just trying to work out where the directive to do this come from. Or is there no directive?

The directive comes from the equality act ccgs have a responsibility to work within that

Great. So just checking I’ve understood, how the exemptions work in the NHS is that every ccg has a policy that’s based on the equality act, so that all patients who require intimate care will receive this from someone who is the same sex as they are. Does this mean that trans employees don’t provide any intimate care? Or do they provide care to people who don’t have a preference about receiving it from someone of a specific sex? Does this all still apply if a GRC is involved? What about if someone had a GRC before they started working for the NHS, how would the NHS approach that?
Sorry for all the questions!

Any patent can request not to have care delivered by someone no care is undertaken if someone does not want it too unless they lack capacity and its in there best interests or they are under section of the mental health act. Again I have no idea what each ccg does in relation to this or how they approach it the nhs is not one thing in reality it's more like a brand name these days. If someone as a grc then this exception does not apply as the person is legally the gender they present if someone already as a grc you can not ask if they have but can request a birth certificate but again only if that is something you wohld ask anyone else for. I hope this makes sence sense organisations have used this exeption since the equality act came in. I know this because it was used on me with my collaboration in it at the time. It is not usually discussed as it is a hr matter and therefore the employee as the right to privacy in these matters

Ok so the exemptions in the EqA can still exclude people with GRC’s but the NHS don’t use the exemptions to do this? So a transwoman with a GRC would be fine to perform intimate care on a woman who has requested a female nurse? I know the patient could refuse this, I’m just interested from a policy point of view.

This is pretty important as Daim was saying that the EqA and selfID are two different things and don’t affect each other. But surely if the NHS doesn’t apply the EqA exemptions to people with GRCs then it is very relevant as to how people get those GRCs in the first place?

Going to bed now but will check back tomorrow. Thanks for your help

Again I don't know the answer to that one sorry the nhs is not one thing as I said its a number of individual organisations that is managed and supervised by NHS England the individual employment policies are ccg based. The gra does not allow. You to ask someone if they have a GRC and if you have a female birth certificate how. Can the ccg show you are not legally. Female so. They can not ask you if you are or prevent you from doing things that are single sex to bar to not do this is very high though I'm. Not sure how. Much It as been ever tested as I don't know of anyone in these positions who as ever. Wanted to challenge them as I said this is usually done in claberation with people if you know of cases where a trans person as challenged the exception then please enlighten me. The talk on. Here that it can be used for all sorts of things as no basis in fact though I suppose there is nothing in people challenging where the bar is set but the act does indicate it is set quite high. If this consultation was addressing the equality. Act then maybe this would be something that would be needed to be looked at to. Give more. Clarity

The answer is yes, Lemon.

But surely if the NHS doesn’t apply the EqA exemptions to people with GRCs then it is very relevant as to how people get those GRCs in the first place?

This is the crux of the problem. The risk averseness comes partly from not being able to ask people if they have a GRC. So fuck that, it's unworkable for women having and continuing to have rights to dignity and privacy and it needs to change.

Been reading on and off, when and as, during the working day.

Still saying:

No penis in spaces reserved for women and girls. For reasons of safeguarding and privacy and dignity and autonomy, etc etc. for women and girls.

I have to say, though - for involuntarily spitting water all over my laptop and laughing happily this morning -

FireFartingDuck Thu 28-Jun-18 00:15:55 (back on Page 13):

All the "If you prick us, do we not bleed?" stuff is entirely irrelevant. What is relevant is the "If you have a prick, no entry" stuff.

Wonderful wit and use of words! Love it!

@LemonJello

Sorry for the delay - I was watching the football last night. You can read all about the Equality Act Exemptions here - section 110 onwards is regarding single sex services and trans people. You can see there was a proposal put to parliament in 2010 by a transgender organisation to remove these exemptions but this was rejected:

https://publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201516/cmselect/cmwomeq/390/39007.htm

Main points to note:

110.The Equality Act 2010 allows for the provision of separate-sex113 and single-sex services114 where this is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim” (a form of words intended to require the application of an objective standard of justification). The Act also effectively permits service providers not to allow a trans person to access separate-sex or single-sex services—on a case-by-case basis, where exclusion is “a proportionate means of achieving a legitimate aim”.115

123.The Explanatory Notes for the Act give an example as follows:
A group counselling session is provided for female victims of sexual assault. The organisers do not allow transsexual people to attend as they judge that the clients who attend the group session are unlikely to do so if a male-to-female transsexual person was also there. This would be lawful.129

Thanks Bespin and daimbars

So we have one example of an organisation using the exemptions- the NHS, but it seems from what Bespin has said, they don’t apply these exemptions when a GRC is involved as they are legally entitled to in EqA. This is perhaps partly because it is illegal for them to ask about a GRC so using the exemptions in these circs is pretty unworkable for them?

Therefore, daimbars, would you agree that the process by which people are awarded GRCa is pretty relevant in this example?