Diva magazine is trans inclusive

[daimbars]

Statement on trans inclusion in a tweet from Diva, the UK's biggest lesbian magazine.
I'm pleased they've made their position clear, and support it.

Or are we saying that anyone with an attraction to woman should not be around little girls?

How surprising* - a homophobic statement in support of trans entitlement to women's spaces.

• not surprising at all

I'm not biting, Snappity.

risk inciting violence against trans women who do enter things like changing rooms.

Violence? I read that post as someone having a stern word and asking the person to leave.

But again, turningvthis back on women and not answering the questions:

why are you afraid of using the men’s?
why can’t you just call the police like you expect women to if you’re uncomfortable?
why is the answer to Male violence allowing men in the ladies.

Answers to these questions would be interesting

Any decent person raised as a male would know this is unacceptable. Which leaves you to question the ethics of those who dont.

Well just to reassure you TimeLady in nearly two decades of practising law I have yet to see anyone hauled before a jury for making a verbal complaint. That is plain scaremongering.

There is a gigantic chasm between making a complaint and "reacting badly" enough to end up in a Crown Court explaining yourself to a jury.

you. Are wanting to ban trans woman from spaces while ironically including trans men in them that look like. Men so why can a man not just identify as a trans man and access woman's spaces equally

Trans men are not generally a threat to males, being mostly smaller and not socialised to be violent. I'd be ok with male toilets as gender neutral and female as single sex but there may well be some males who don't like that - it doesn't affect me so how would I know?

Any decent person raised as a male would know this is unacceptable. Which leaves you to question the ethics of those who dont

Absolutely. As these activists don't give a shit. They'll just take what they want. They don't care about women. Because they're not women. They're men, who want to go where the fuck they like, screw how women feel about that. Morally dubious and certainly not decent.

Quick genuine question how many penis's have you seen in a female changing room? I'm not dismissing anyone who as genuinely had to face this or had something happen to them in these spaces from men, but more in the I was in a changing room and there was this trans woman in there getting changed and I saw a penis

I have encountered this in the women's change/shower facilities at work. The actual cock. No women now use the facilities after cycling in or running at lunch time. We also have to put up with smelly man shits and piss on the lavatory seats. It's unacceptable.

I've done things that I know have had a negative impact on other people, either because I've been entitled to do so (for example, as DD is adopted she gets priority schools admissions over someone who lives next door to the school and has three siblings already in the school) or because I've been encouraged to do so (going to the front of the very long immigration queue because I had DC with me, even though mine are both old enough now that we don't really need the same consideration as those travelling with toddlers and very young children need). On a small number of occasions I've done something that I shouldn't and hoped fervently that it didn't cause problems for someone else (like taking a desperate small child into the disabled loos because they were the closest).

Each time I've felt a bit guilty, and acknowledge that my actions have an impact on others. Even if everyone (or most people, anyway) would agree that what I did was OK / they have done similar / they don't mind / it's OK as a one-off but don't make a habit of it.

But maybe that's just my female socialisation kicking in - I ought to check whether DH feels the same as me in these sorts of situations.

Natural that is truly fucking appalling

Pratchet yes it is. Very upsetting and rage inducing.

Interestingly we have 4 sets of women's loos, 1 on my floor and 3 on the ground. Lucy (nn Lulu) uses all of them, unlike most of us who tend to use the ones nearest to our desk unless popping out of a meeting room or suchlike. But the ones near where I sit are the busiest, due to being the only ones on the floor, and these are the ones Lucy uses the most frequently despite being the furthest away, on a different floor and not near meeting rooms. There are also 3 fully self contained accessible cubicles on each floor.

Naturalbornwoman you have communal showers in your work place?! Not sure how I would feel about showing naked with my female colleagues tbh!

We don't have communal showers, we have shower cubicles and an open changing area. The person was changing in the communal area. I personally wouldn't be naked in that area even with all female colleagues, but I wouldn't be offended or afraid if I saw a female body in there wearing less clothing than I personally would choose to wear in that situation. I now wouldn't shower in the cubicles knowing that a male could be in the communal area outside.

One woman broke ranks to say yes because she is a bisexual woman who is not attracted to people who have vaginas and would not have sex with someone who had a vagina.

At the risk of being repetitive, I think I may need a pomo to English translation on this one.

It’s probably bigoted, but someone who identifies as queer I wouldn’t even give the time of day to.

To a certain extent it's generational, but if I was single again I'd use this as a filtering mechanism too and it would work out well since those who almost all describe themselves like that are too young for me anyway. Anyone within 15 years of my age describing themselves that way is generally going to be insufferable.

What a depressing thread to read.

I dispare at what has happened to mumsnet.

I've not been on much at all and mainly on other boards.

But the difference in just a few weeks is heart breaking.

I've not read the whole thread(couldn't bring myself too)

But it's obvious, that the only people cheering this are not lesbians(as in biological females attracted to biological females, can't believe I've had to write this!)

So something set up originally for those biological Women, are being usurped by anyone who is not.

nice

SSSHHHHHHhhhhhh silly women don't be so closed minded, you don't know what you are, because someone else has decided who they are

We don't have communal showers, we have shower cubicles and an open changing area. The person was changing in the communal area. I personally wouldn't be naked in that area even with all female colleagues, but I wouldn't be offended or afraid if I saw a female body in there wearing less clothing than I personally would choose to wear in that situation. I now wouldn't shower in the cubicles knowing that a male could be in the communal area outside.

This is exactly what my gym is like, and is also an accurate description of my feelings.

After a difficult childhood and adolescence, it's taken me until nearly the age of 40 to be comfortable changing in front of other women.

I genuinely live in dread and fear of the day a TIM decides to invade the women's changing rooms at my gym.

One woman broke ranks to say yes because she is a bisexual woman who is not attracted to people who have vaginas and would not have sex with someone who had a vagina.
That made my brain hurt!

I guess this is someone who old-style, would have said they liked male bits, but wasn't put off by the said male-bit possessor being a bit gender non-conforming, or even a full-on cross-dresser. But new-style, you have to instead say you are bisexual (both/either/all genders -- why should bisexuals get left out of the great renaming!), but I think the 'penis-fetishist' tag probably gets ignored?

It's trying to take sexual orientation and fix it instead on 'gender', and down-grade concerns about genitalia, and stick that instead under 'sexual preference' in the belief that orientation is fixed/innate/unchangeable, whereas a preference is socially-influenced and potentially changeable.

Or not. All part of the great double-speak drive, where if we keep changing what words mean, and stop anyone asking (for fear of saying the wrong thing), then everyone will finally stop talking about it.

And someone has finally found a way to appropriate bisexuality (why should gay people be the only ones feeling appropriated!).

My last experience of a swimming pool was a couple of years ago, taking my little granddaughter for toddler swimming lessons. Private pool, female communal changing room and I would have raised merry hell if I had been expected to share that space with a penis. Inverted or otherwise.

why don’t you feel safe in the mens
Because I'm not a man I'm a trans woman and I'm often seen as every other woman and therefore at risk of assault and sexual assault in those spaces
so letting all men in the women's helps how?

if women can just call the police who will instantly arrive and remove any man being an issue why can’t you do that too?
Having called the police and waited the 20 to 30 minutes it took to respond what would you like anyone to do. Wait there and get. Assaulted more.
Do you imagine women get a better response time?
Genuinely curious, as the few Times I have called the police its been hours later they responded.

why, if you feel unsafe in the men’s, is the answer to allow all men
into the ladies?
Again this is an assumption that all men will. Want to id as woman
to access toilets some men no doubt will do that just as they will
die in partition. Walls to. Spy on woman or dress. Up. As janitors
and yes I do think that this is something we're we need discussion
but you are not wanting that you. Are wanting to ban trans woman
from spaces while ironically including trans men in them that look
like. Men so why can a man not just identify as a trans man and
access woman's spaces equally

I did not want to ban any current users from the women's, so [redacted] have used them alongside me for the 40 odd years I have been using them.
Then along came some activists who seem hell bent on trying to intimidate me into letting them in despite obvious dangers. When intimidation didn't work they tried whining like a child, then creating a name (playground behaviours ) to bully me and intimidate me.
Thing is, I am old now and I been around some. Non of the gaslighting stuff works.
And I get mighty angry at some [redacted ] trying to bully/gaslight/whine their way into my space.
So now, no you can't use my space, you show no empathy, sympathy, insight,charity or Grace.
All of which women have shown to you in decades.
It's a generic you.

You and me both, Flooffloof. I'm channeling my inner Greer more and more as I get older

So we can lay to rest the ‘anyone acting badly in the toilets you can just call the police’ thing then? That’s good, because we’ve been saying this for a while - safeguarding is not about letting it happen then nabbing the perp after, it’s about preventing crime in the first place.

As a transwoman, if those men who assaulted you want to follow you into the ladies they will be able to, under self ID. So that’s not a great idea is it? And believe me they will. Violent men will use any loophole they can. So neither women not transwomen are made safer by self ID.

So why is this still being pushed for? When all the problems we as women have with it are raised, there’s always an ‘oh but you can just...’ objection from the activists so dismiss the worry. Suspicious looking bloke? Just call the cops! Oh but we can’t because....

The hypocrisy is astounding. This isn’t about the safety of a small group, it’s aboit appropriation.

Well. This thread has been enlightening. Or perhaps it would be better to say endarkening.

Depressing, but also resolve stiffening. So, this is what we're up against, a group of people (note that this group includes some people who are not trans themselves) who think that the safety, privacy, and dignity of 50% of the population should be sacrificed in order to prevent less than 1% of the population from potentially being on the receiving end of mistreatment from unpleasant men. The fact that their proposed solution will result in making it much easier for those unpleasant men to follow them into a space formerly free of those men does not appear to concern them. The fact that their proposed solution will render the space they're demanding be opened up to people for whom it was not intended unusable for some of the women and girls for whom it was intended does not concern them either. The proposal of a third space which would protect trans people from violent men while also preserving the safety, privacy, and dignity of women and girls has been rejected, because it reminds biologically male trans people that they are not biologically female.

It's been said many times, but when people show you who they are you should believe them. The people making those arguments have shown us exactly who they are, the question now is whether or not the general public is going to continue attempting to compromise with them or whether we're simply going to tell them "no, you can't have what you're asking for".

It's been said many times, but when people show you who they are you should believe them. The people making those arguments have shown us exactly who they are

^^This. And it's why I welcome them on to the MN FWR board because it shows them in their true light. Even those who claim to be 'women' don't respond like a woman would.

#weseeyou